(12/5/00 8:18:43 am)
|Now THIS is magic ...|
Oh, oh, oh! This is marvelous! All that I had hoped to find when I began poring over the nooks and crannies of the Endicott Studio site was -at most- additional research material for my senior thesis, but this is quite literally enchanting (or, at least, that's what I'll be telling myself in order to justify the hours that I've spent poring through old topics instead of typing away at my last chapter).
I would/will love participating in discussions -or even just eavesdropping on them- but first, I'd like to ask if there are any guidelines or rules concerning etiquette that you'd prefer members to observe? For example, I'm currently finishing up my BA, and applying to graduate schools that will allow me to pursue this type of thing (i.e., myth, legend, folklore, and the effects that all three have upon modern literature) in my research. Would it be off the subject to inquire as to whether anyone out there might have some advice to offer on good programs? If so, apologies. If not ... thanks.
(12/5/00 9:53:05 am)
Welcome to the board! There are no formal rules for the board although we try to stick to the area of folklore and mythology "most of the time." Those questions would include educational programs and anything remotely related.
My biggest request--which hasn't been an issue yet and I seriously doubt it would for anyone here!--is to avoid unneccessary profanity since we do have a lot of gradeschoolers visiting the site. And I think EZBoard censors itself so it would be nearly impossible to do anyway. Unfortunately, it appears to attack even words that are perfectly acceptable to our discussions. That is the problem with censoring...
(12/5/00 11:46:00 pm)
Welcome, Helen! As Heidi says, there aren't any strict rules here, although we try not to stray too far off-topic. It's also a very *polite* board, even when people disagree with each other, which is something we all value. (A couple of times people have shown up who were inclined to be more aggressively argumentative, but then they got bored and left when they couldn't get a rise out of anyone here.)
(12/8/00 1:43:32 pm)
I'm mostly a lurker on this site, but some excellent discussions go on here.
As for your request regarding info about grad schools with programs....
You can actually get an MA or Ph.D. in Folklore. Indiana University offers both (that's where I got my MA). They have a good program, though not a lot of funding for grad students. Their faculty is good to excellent. My master's thesis was a comparison and analysis of a folktale type that appears in both the Grimms' tales and Perrault against modern feminist versions.
When I was looking to start grad school, I also applied to UC Berkeley and Penn. Berkeley has a great rep overall and I believe that's where Dundes still is.
I'm not sure what's up with Penn these days.
In a way, I think I did it the hard way--though I sure learned a lot! The hard core of Folklore research is fascinating. It takes anthropology and just explodes the borders. We used to joke in our program that we would have completed our studies in Folklore when we could describe what we do to a stranger at a cocktail party. Here's my definition.
"Folklore is the study of the result of the intersection between the individual and culture. I study an individual's cultural and intellectual product, keeping an eye on context and performance."
Of course, once I open my mouth and let loose with this little ditty, my audience starts frantically looking for the bar.... But really, if you're interested in studying literary fairy tales and myths and their pressence in contemporary lit (or any lit for that matter) I think your best bet is to find a good English department that offers a Ph.D. program, preferrably at a school that also has a Folklore or World Cultures department (or a good myth department). I think this mostly because you stand a better chance of getting some funding (hugely important, take my debt--please), and you also might find more support working outside the actual discipline of Folklore since it sounds like you may be mostly interested in the literary function of mythologcial/folkloric material--this may be a huge assumption, so pardon me in advance.
Whew. Sorry to have run off at the mouth. I do go on.... I hope some of this has been useful!
Best of luck,
(12/8/00 1:51:17 pm)
|Oh, one last thing|
You also stand a better chance of finding academic employment after you finish (if that's your goal) with a Ph.D. in English rather than Folklore. The pickings for Folklore positions are slimmer than slim.
(12/8/00 9:51:01 pm)
|way off topic but....|
I do apologize for sticking my foot in (to a mailbox and not a shoe) but this is so rare for me that I simply couldn't help myself.
Meagan~~I'm a relatively new (fellow) lurker here but when I saw my own very name I had to let out a squeak. For you see, my name is also 'Meagan' and it is so seldom that I see the same spelling of it anywhere. It's a common enough name but this seems to be one of the littlest used appearances of it. I am told that 'Mea Gan' means (loosely?) 'My Freethinker' in Latin. Mother was sooooo tickled when she learned that she had so aptly named me.
Laughter and glitter,
~~Meagan (or 'Mea')
(12/9/00 1:48:00 am)
|Re: way off topic but....|
Meagan, with a background in folklore like yours (which definitely puts mine to shame...), why are you lurking and not posting?!
(12/9/00 5:44:54 am)
I.U. is a an awesome school--beautiful campus and great farmers market. My father taught there for many years. But I would also like to propose my favorite, University of Wisconsin-Madison. I originally studied African oral narratives with Harold Scheub (you can get the degree in Africna Languages and Literature). But over the years Harld has helped to organize an interdisciplanary degree in Folklore that combines the talents of English departments, South East Asian scholars,African scholars, ect. At the time I was in school his approach was considered radically different from I.U. which was steeped in the anthropological tradition--dealing with oral narratives with a more literary and aesthetic critical methodology rather than an social anthropology. Though, all that has changed over the last twenty year and I think both departments now offer a wider range of critical methods and thinking about oral narrative traditions.
English departments are all right...but they stay pretty close to western european traditions. A good folklore department gives you the world...and you may be surprised to find that you love other places and other tale telling traditions more.
And Meagan, I agree with Terri...please jump in...I value most from this board all the combined references for books,ideas and questions that I would never have known on my own. I have a little notebook by the computer to keeptrack of all the really cool suggestions I have read here over the last year. So please don't hesitate.
Are you teaching now?
(12/10/00 7:56:27 am)
U of Penn had a Folklore department as of five years back (when I was there), and one of my close friends was getting his graduate degree in Folklore Studies. So you might inquire to see if that program is still ongoing.
(12/10/00 8:04:55 pm)
You have touched a topic very near and dear to me these days, as I am in the process of applying for PhD programs.
I'm finishing up an MA in Folklore at Ohio State University, under Amy Shuman. It's a terrific program, with a strong anthropological basis. It's run out of the English dept., where the funding is excellent -- if you're accepted, you WILL be offered either a TA position or fellowship. I'm not applying here for PhD work, not because the program isn't good, but because I want to work with a specialist in the classic European fairy tales, which OSU doesn't have. However, if you're interested in narrative theory, American and African-American tales, and personal narrative, than OSU is for you. Also, if you're interested in rhetoric, this is one of the best programs in the country.
U Penn is excellent -- it's where my adviser Amy shuman got her degree -- but their funding situation is not so good; I think they only give financial aid to PhD students, and then only a few. Indiana U is the same way -- good program, rotten funding. I applied to IU for my MA, and they managed to lose both my application fee and my GRE scores, so I'm not too kindly disposed toward them. It's still one of the finest programs in the country, despite my experiences.
The schools I'm applying to are: Cornell, U of Minnesota, U of Pittsburgh, U of Florida, and Wayne State U. At Minnesota, there's the Cultural Studies in Discourse and society Department; they don't accept terminal MA applicants, so if you apply there, you're in for the long haul to the PhD. The best thing about UM is that Jack Zipes is there; not only is he probably the top scholar in the field of fairy tales, but he's also an extremely nice man. The funding is pretty good, as far as I can tell.
Alison Lurie is at Cornell, and they have a wonderful funding system set up -- you are supported the whole way through. Of course, it's fiercely competitive getting in, but I've heard that it's quite friendly, especially for Ivy League. For an MA, though, you maight want to try elsewhere; as a PhD student, it's more important to find a faculty member you want to work with, while in MA, you might be better off looking at the setup of the program, and Cornell doesn't really have a specialization in folklore, though they do have cultural studies.
U Pittsburgh is a great place for children's literature, for which they have an interdisciplinary setup; you can take folklore courses in language departments, and through library science. Financial aid is good. U Florida is similar to OSU, except that they have a few more folklorists on staff in the English dept., and children's lit is there too (at OSU, children's lit is in Education). Richard Thomson is there, and Jack Zipes used to teach there. Funding is excellent.
Wayne State U (near Detroit) is not very high profile, but there is a very solid folklore program there, also run out of the English dept., by Janet Langlois, an urban legends specialist. Also, the fairy tale journal _Marvels and Tales_ is produced there, under the leadership of Donald Haase, a specialist in the Grimms, from the German dept. Funding is pretty good.
Other good folklore programs to look at include: Utah State, U of Oregon, SUNY Buffalo, and SUNY Stony Brook (Ruth Bottigheimer is there). The last i heard, neither Berkeley nor UCLA were accepting new grad students in folklore, otherwise, I would definitely have applied. Harvard might be worth a shot, but they don't have grad study in mythology and folklore -- though Maria Tatar is in the German dept., and they do have grad study in Celtic languages and literature, if you're interested in that. Jacques Barchilon (a Perrault scholar) is at the U of Colorado (Boulder, I think). Also, Cristina Bacchilega (_Postmodern Fairy Tales_)is at U of Hawaii Manoa -- Hawaii is certainly tempting, especially during the Ohio winter! You might also want to check out anthropology and language depts. Does this help at all?
(12/10/00 8:14:39 pm)
|More folklore program stuff|
You mentioned something on another thread about Jack Zipes, so here's some more info: at U of Minnesota, Jack Zipes is an adjunct professor in the Cultural Studies / Comp Lit Dept., and he told me that it would be no problem for him to direct a dissertation in the English dept. If you wanted to apply there, you could apply to either or both depts. Knowledge of German probably isn't an absolute requirement when you go in, and most schools offer a "German for Research" class for grad students, which gives you reading knowledge. I've gone through these courses in French and German, and they're very helpful. So go on and apply!
(12/11/00 8:28:14 am)
Thanks both of you, Terri and Midori, for such a warm welcome. I've been a bit too shy to post--but I'll get over it (you may have unleashed a monster!).
Unfortunately I'm not teaching (yet). I finished my Masters and decided I needed to seek my fortune in the *real* world. I now work in children's publishing (that's how I met Ellen S. who sent me to this site). But, I come from a long line of teachers and, pardon if this sounds overly romantic, but I feel the calling. I'm considering teaching first grade. I relish the thought of hanging out with kids, picking over their fertile little imaginations for yummy bits to work into my own writing while I help them learn to write (hmm--my old witch tendencies coming through).
Thanks again. Read you soon!
P.S. I LOVE the possibility that my name could mean free thought--In fact, I was named after the teacher of my mom's Art for Teachers class. I've also read that Meagan (pronounced with the long e) could mean "strange," which in my case makes a lot more sense.
(12/12/00 10:41:27 pm)
Thank GOD! I'm a Theatre M.F.A candidate at Ohio State! Do you think I could utilize your services as a folklore consultant in my thesis research?
BTW, Hele, I too am sooooo releived to find this site. Finally!
(12/12/00 10:41:38 pm)
Thank GOD! I'm a Theatre M.F.A candidate at Ohio State! Do you think I could utilize your services as a folklore consultant in my thesis research?
BTW, Helen, I too am sooooo releived to find this site. Finally!
(12/13/00 4:40:46 am)
Sure! I'd be happy to help in any way I can, and to point you to faculty who will be able to help even more. You can reach me at email@example.com. What is your thesis on?
(12/13/00 5:20:09 am)
Totally off topic, but I saw the OSU header and freaked. I'm a student of Aikido, and "Osu!" is the Japanese word we say as greeting and expressing readiness to train.
I'll be better later.
(12/13/00 11:40:31 am)
Considering the fact that I am using this board to work on my thesis,
I suppose "Osu" would be the most appropriate greeting!
BTW, I have the entire Snow White, Blood Red series...love your work...
(12/13/00 11:51:25 am)
See the Rites of Passage posting. Its in a very general "idea" stage right now. My proposal is due at the end of this coming Winter Quarter (gulp). But I'd like to, in a theatrical way (of course), present the following ideas:
Jungian archetypes in fairy tales (and what we can learn from these archetypes)
Rites of Passage: not only how they are expressed in fairy tales, but what are some rites of passage for women in different societies? (My idea is to base movment peices off of these rituals)
Variants: I'd like to utilize more "exotic" variants on the most popular "Disney" fairy tales-- Hansel and Gretel, Red Riding Hood, Cinderella, Snow White, Repunzel, Babba Yaga...as well as explore the mythic base of these tales.
And, of course, condense all this down into a 45-minute theatre peice. Easy as pie, huh?
Still wanna help?
(12/13/00 8:15:30 pm)
That sounds so interesting! I'd love to help out. I have a library
book, _The Portrayal of the Maturation Process of Girl-Figures in
Selected Tales of the Brothers Grimm_, by Diann Rusch-Feja, which
seems to deal directly with your topic. BTW, if you're having trouble
getting ahold of library books on fairy tales, it's probably because
I have most of them -- I'm happy to share, though! Jenna mentioned
Midori's article (which is great), and Marie-Louise von Franz; I have
several of her works, as does the library. Give me some time, and
I can gather some stuff together; also, I'll put you in touch with
my adviser, who has some info on therapeutic use of fairy tales, I
believe. My fiance's specialty is drama theory and history, so he
might have something useful to you as well. Also, I have some stuff
on the connections between classical ballet and fairy tales; I was
a guest lecturer for the Columbus BalletMet, and I've still got that
research. It's not immediately applicable to your work, but since
it relates to fairy tales in performance, it might offer a way into
the subject. Send me an e-mail, and we'll work something out -- it's
great to have a fellow-fairy-tale enthusiast right in the neighborhood!
(12/13/00 8:48:35 pm)
|Re: Fairy Tales|
In an earlier thread, I had posted info on fairy tales and ballets- more descriptions a a handfull of them. Here's the link to that thread if you're interested:
Back to Victorians
I'll try to think of more.
(12/17/00 7:16:40 pm)
|Hello From a Lay Person and Lurker|
The topic header - This is Magic! - pretty much sums up what I felt when I first discovered the board on Dark Goddess' site and then more recently, when I discovered this one through the Sur la Lune site (great site, btw).
As I mentioned above, I'm mostly a lurker and most definitely a lay person (English major at Hope College 19 years ago, never graduated - ran out of money after two years and college fell by the wayside). I've loved fairy tales since I was a child, though, and finding so many grown women - and men - who not only also love fairy tales but even make a living writing/ studying/teaching them is wonderful to me. I keep telling myself that if I ever do go back to school, it'll be for something useful, such as computer programming or web design so I can quit being a secretary and make a little more money - but when I read the discussions that take place here, I'm reasonably certain that if I ever do go back to school, it'll more than likely be for something "useless", such as folklore studies. (And if I never find a job in my field and end up being a secretary till I retire, at least I won't resent the time I spent at my studies, right?)
I did have a question about the rules for this board, particularly concerning spoilers. I've noticed that everyone's very considerate about not discussing in depth new books or stories until others have had plenty of time to read them. About how old does a book or story have to be before it's fair game for discussion, no worrying about spoiling it for others?
Very happy to have found this board!
and grad school and faeries, oh my!
I too was thrilled to my toes when
I happened across this board during Christmas vacation. I've lurked
for a while, both to get the feel of the place and to wait for a return
to my divinely-swift (when it functions) T3 connection at school. At
any rate, here I am and here I hope to stay!
I'm also an undergraduate (nice to see I'm not the only one!) working
on my senior thesis -- have to have a 50 page work on a topic of my
choosing complete by next Christmas. It's more than a little daunting,
to say the least! I spent the 1999-2000 academic year studying at the
University of Reading in England, fulfilling a lifelong dream to see
the British Isles. I'm pretty proud to have visited the homelands of
both my majors and my family background before I turned 21 (I'm an English/German
double major, minoring in film and in the honors program).
Now I'm back home at my little college in Georgia, trying to work on
this folklore thesis with no advanced guidance (none of our profs specialize
in this field). I basically began my research last night, picking up
a huge stack of books today. At this point, I'm focusing on the Japanese
kitsune stories, thinking I'll then try to find other cultures with
shape-shifting foxes and explore what I find. Or I may head off on the
animal-bride tack, looking at selkies and other shapeshifters as well.
I'm not sure if it would work or not, but I've also had the potential
comparisons between animals who become women and women who become animals
in mind. Ugh! I just have to narrow this mess down. :-) All I know for
sure is that I've loved this field all my life, and it was a revelation
last semester when I finally realized I could actually legitimately
do my thesis on something I enjoy so much!
What really brought me back to all this was reading Neil Gaiman and
Yoshitaka Amano's _The Dream Hunters_ this past summer. I was lucky
enough to meet both men at DragonCon, and Amano's sketch of the fox
in both her forms hangs proudly over my bed. Between that and Neil's
_Stardust_, I knew I was hooked again for sure. I really want to use
one of those works in my thesis -- I just have to figure out how.
I suppose what I'm after here is feedback. Thoughts, comments, questions,
advice? I'd love to get a portion, if not the entirety, of this thing
published when I'm finished, so I want to steer clear of already-tread
ground. I'm pretty much flying blind at this point, which is bad, since
this paper represents my best chance of financial aid for grad school,
the _only_ way I can afford to go.
Most of all, I can't wait to see what comes up here! I had also noticed
the fairy tale references in commercials lately, and after getting Jack
Zipes' new Oxford Companion, had been wanting to see In The Company
of Wolves, so I suppose felicitous coincidence brought me to the right
Hail and well-met, friends!
As a silly postscript, is anyone else familiar with the Japanese tanuki
and the Roman god Priapos? I discovered both of them fairly recently,
and they've become dear, if somewhat obscure, favorites. :-)
and grad school and faeries, oh my!
This is from the old board, where
some of us were discussing such topics.
Hope this helps as a start.
Laura, welcome to the Board. Have
you seen Heinz Insu Fenkl's essay on "Dangerous Women" which
discusses fox women tales? You can find it at: www.endicott-studio.com/fordangr.html
Midori Snyder, who is on this Board, wrote at least one tanuki tale
that I know of, in one of the "Borderland" anthologies,
so perhaps she'll comment further on the subject. There's also a nice
tanuki story by Jan Hodgeman in the latest volume of Terri's "Year's
Best Fantasy & Horror" anthology (with Ellen Datlow).
Also, if you're interested in women/animal transformations in general,
Carolyn Dunn (who sometimes visits this board) has edited a wonderful
collection of stories by Native American women writers which encompasses
this theme called "Through the Eye of the Deer"
And I agree with you completely in your recommendation of Neil Gaiman's
"Dream Hunter," such a gorgeous piece of fiction!
I guess I'm a lurker, too. I love
you guys. I posted a short what about? (Rapunzels Tower)and you all
came thru. As a hard science guy, with a love for the *MAGICK* I always
thought I'd missed out on a lot of the lit. My bad. I can't thank everyone
enuff for pointing out avenues for exploration. No advice or anything
but support for everyones work, just thot I'd say ThanX! Helen... They
ARE *MAGICK* Welcome to the club
Rebel - Somewhere in Germany