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La
Reine Noire
Registered User
(6/28/01 8:12:24 pm)
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Anybody else watched "Gormenghast?"
PBS aired a BBC miniseries yesterday night and earlier tonight based on Mervyn Peake's novels, "Titus Groan" and "Gormenghast." I watched both, for various reasons, and found them to be brilliant.
I've not read "The Lord of the Rings," unfortunately, but I've heard "Gormenghast" compared to it several times. It's the story of a fantasy kingdom rotting in its own decadence and adherence to meaningless ceremony and ritual. To tie in with the earlier "Cruelty" thread, one of the main characters, I could truly not categorise as a hero or a villain.
For anyone who's seen the series or read the books, I'm referring to Steerpike (played brilliantly in the series by Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, one of my favourite actors). He's Machiavellian, he's murderous, and yet he's so damned charming...and I could sympathise with him. Completely. If one figures in his situation, one could certainly sympathise with him.
I love villains like that. The ones you can't hate, because you enjoy seeing them get the upper hand. The ones that elicit your sympathy even when you *want* to hate them. The ones that are so complex that you can't make any clear decision about them without embattling yourself. Hollywood has too few of them these days.
~Kavita
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(6/29/01 6:44:01 am)
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Re: Anybody else watched "Gormenghast?"
I saw part of the miniseries awhile back and was instantly drawn in by the Peter Greenaway-esque visuals. The characters are stunning as well... I liked Steerpike as well - not just b/c he's in a sorry situation. He's so evil but so *alive* - it's magnetic.
I also highly recommend the books by Mervyn Peake which have a lot more meat and a continuous shift in perspective (the m/s tends to focus on Steerpike's pov). It definetely reads like a fairy tale except much much much more detailed.
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La
Reine Noire
Registered User
(6/29/01 7:02:55 am)
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The Books
Isthmus,
Yes, I've actually started reading the books. I've owned a copy of the trilogy since December when I found it in a used bookshop in London and couldn't resist buying it, but never found the time to read it until now. And I love it. He's such an evocative writer and I can see what you mean by the shifts in point-of-view giving a deeper image of all the other characters as well as Steerpike.
I've only finished "Titus Groan" as yet, but I'll hopefully
get some reading done on "Gormenghast" during my break
at work today.
~Kavita
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Gordon
Unregistered User
(6/29/01 10:40:53 am)
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RE: Anybody else watched "Gormenghast?"
It was great. Steerpike is one of those characters I just loved to hate. Throughout the show I found myself asking "What the heck did the director say to get them to twist up their faces and voices like that?"
I think my favorite character was the doctor's wife. Lots of the other characters were fun, but she made me fall right out of my chair.
...Gordon.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/2/01 9:16:11 am)
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A good long Peake
I watched Gormenghast, too, and found it to be an excellent rendition of the novels--as close as anyone is every likely to come. It pulls out the grotesque absurdity and cruelty of the books (though it's been nearly 30 years since I read them, and this makes me want to go back and read them again). Wisely, it leaves off before plunging into the 3rd, and less satisfying, volume. And a great cast: Christopher Lee, the perfect Flay; John Sessions made a splendid Dr. Prunesqualor; and the two Groan sisters were incomperable. Everyone really inhabited their roles. It was hard going at first, I think, but that's only because the work does adhere so closely to the books. It's being released on video and DVD shortly, too.
For those who are interested in such things, the city was built and filmed underwater--in a huge aquarium--to give it a sense of immensity and distance.
And the rook, Mr. Chalk? The director claims that they had settled upon an animatronic white rook, but not long before filming began, there was an article in the news about a boy who had rescued an albino raven...needless to say, they contacted him.
GF
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(7/3/01 6:56:00 am)
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GG discussion board
There's a really great ezboard w/some really nice ppl over at:
pub10.ezboard.com/fgormenghastgeneral
There's lots of discussion going right now b/c pbs just aired the series. It's been a pretty small community so there's a lot of off topic posts, but a lot of Mervyn Peake discussion as well.
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Jane
Harrison
Registered User
(7/3/01 9:01:39 am)
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Re: Gormenghast
Hullo:
I watched (and liked it). I can't say the film version compared to the novels though, but what film does? <G> The novels are classics. However, I would never compare Gormenghast to Lord of the Rings. Two very different apples there. Very different. I can't imagine how people compare them. Let me know.
About Steerpike. I love the fellow. I soon felt he was the hero of the tale. (I might write a paper on that.) When you think about it, he was in many ways. Gormenghast is the evil and he took it down. He was active, not passive. Also if you have read the books, which are WILD with paintings and words, Steerpike came from the kitchen, the belly of that whale of a castle. The notion that he survived, climbed out of the whale, and then attacked it, is heroic. I don't know if Peake meant that or not. But was Steerpike really evil? Well, he was a product of the kitchen and the whale. Titus Groan, I don't know what to make of him yet. I haven't decided. And what do you folks think of that wild girl. I would like to hear opinions on her character.
Janie
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(7/4/01 7:46:25 am)
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Re: Gormenghast
I would definetely agree w/Steerpike being the active agent in GG... I find he's evil in the sense that anything challenging the status quo is evil. Esp in GG which identifies itself w/its rituals - any change must be a threat and take on an evil character.
As for Titus, I view him as a sort of parallel to Steerpike. Although they seem like enemies, they both want the same thing, they both hate GG. Steerpike allows Titus to escape by making Titus the hero in his death. w/o Steerpike's death, I highly doubt Gertrude would have allowed Titus to leave. Titus completes what Steerpike was striving for in a small way, by deserting GG.
And the wild thing! You know, I don't know what to make of her either although the film really underscores the parallel b/w her nature and Titus' desire to be free, even to the point where he says he wants to be just like her.
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Jane
Harrison
Registered User
(7/5/01 1:32:34 pm)
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Re: Gormenghast
Your comment was very interesting. I wonder if Peake felt Titus, Steerpike, and the Wild One were all one, just different parts of the personality? I've read some criticisms of this series, but I always think of Steerpike as the one who really was heroic. If Gormenghast is the status-quo, a metaphor for the status-quo of our world, then Steerpike is the anarchist, and Titus is the person who benefits from the change. I can't help but comment that like Wuthering Heights [which is odd to comment on too], Gormenghast is disturbing. It's a fantasy without a mythology. It's godless. And if it is godless, it might not be about good and evil, but about something else. I still don't know about the wild one. Titus was really involved in a rape there. Metaphorically speaking.
Troubling to think about. <G> But you think about it.
Janie
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/6/01 5:52:21 am)
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Tripartite Groan
Jane,
I wonder if you could make the case that there is something of that missing god element in Titus himself. He rapes the Wild One and she's immediately struck down by lightning. If there isn't some meaning on that level, then it seems as if her very existence is a long, drawn-out red herring.
He is complicitously responsible for her death. He's killed that which was free, paralleling the "real" murder he has to commit to be seen as the right, true Earl of Groan, gaining his freedom to leave the hateful city only by killing. Killing her may be a metaphorical extinguishing of some part of him (his half-sister/soul-sister). Killing Steerpike is killing another dark aspect of his tripartite. Both aspects seem to have been alive, active. I wonder what part he's left with.
His mother and the others recognize him as Earl immediately he has killed their enemy. In a story filled with so much ritual, this all seems like an enormous perversion of a rite of passage. But the wild girl's death is delivered by supernatural forces like something out of a Greek myth. Otherwise, there isn't anything supernatural involved, not even in the rituals, which as you say makes the entire thing godless. It's warped, strange and disturbing. I've always thought the trilogy to be a supreme example of an insane interior landscape exteriorized, something like the House of Usher cubed.
Greg
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(7/6/01 8:11:51 am)
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Re: Tripartite Groan
I think it is possible to view GG as the psyche or interior landscape, and the characters as elements within it, although I'm not sure if that was Peake's intention... Perhaps that is why Gertrude is so certain Titus will return to GG - this idea that you cannot truly deny or leave what you are.
As for Titus killing off the 'live' aspects of his personality... perhaps it is representative of his appropriation of their life-energy. In the forms of Steerpike and the Wild Girl, it is too extreme, destructive and uncontrolable (even Steerpike starts to lose his amazing self restraint near the end). It is only after their deaths Titus is able to leave GG - a challenge to the status quo that does not annihilate it but shifts it. I don't think anyone could be sucessful in annihilating GG!
Interesting point: GG *isn't* about good and evil although we certainly have a clear antagonist... I've read of Steerpike compared to Milton's Satan, Hitler etc.
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Jane
Harrison
Registered User
(7/11/01 6:30:19 pm)
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Re: Tripartite Groan
Greg and Isthmus:
You have both offered some wonderful insights into Gormenghast for me. I never thought to think of it as an
interior landscape, but perhaps it was for Peake, truly and literally, the inside of his head. I trained as an artist in my youthful days. When reading Gormenghast, you see the artist in Peake at work. The way he describes walls, a roof, etc. is like he is painting it with some strange perspective. It is an interior. The lightning killing the wild girl is an element to pause on. I am going to reread it this coming month and mark some passages and get back to the both of you. There is a lot to be said if Titus, the wild Thing, and Steerpike are all parts of the same personality. But what about Steerpike and Fuchsia? What is all that about? This series will drive me nuts. It sort of defies criticism. And that darn castle. One last comment now. I don't believe Titus comes back. The last novel was not represented in the series. And there is much to be said about Titus Alone. <G> Because he does seem to be alone, meaning not whole without Steerpike, Fuchsia, or the castle.
Oh, I am rambling. <G> Maybe this is about madness????
Janie
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/12/01 7:05:44 am)
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Madness Takes Its Toll: Please Have Exact Change
Jane,
I don't think you're rambling. It's a pretty rich text, and I wouldn't even attempt to answer all of it. I'm reminded most of Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer" series. I think both Peake and Wolfe are operating with some labyrinthine private mythography and both reject any insistence that they explain it to you. Wolfe's series is, similarly, one to which can be applied boundless interpretations.
I certainly think it Gormenghast be read as being about madness.
The background on Peake as I've had it explained to me is that by the 3rd book he was dying, and in such pain that he had to have a pulley system rigged in order to write. If someone knows more about that, I'd be interested to hear. But what he was going through as author may be reflected in that idea.
Most readers seems to find the 3rd book disappointing--as you say, Titus Alone is just that. Peake has removed or slain the most interesting elements of the story, removed the thing that bound those elements together (GG itself), and seems somewhat cast adrift about what to do with Titus now that he's freed himself of all that's important in books one and two. It's as if Peake decided to keep going after he got to the "ever after" part of the tale, and between his increasing debility and the thinned plot, it was hard going for him. That he did push through it is something of a testimony to his creative will. While the book may not be satisfying, I can't help but respect the artist enormously.
Greg
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(7/12/01 8:06:46 am)
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Re: Madness Takes Its Toll: Please Have Exact Change
Jane, I don't think you're rambling at all either! GG has a lot of *meat* which is why I think that first quote is so neat (dost thou love picking meat? - something like that!).
I also found the way Peake describes GG fascinating - other than the sheer size of the castle, it seems to be *alive* in its own static way. I love the passages where Peake describes the castle - it becomes a character in its own right.
I think Peake also began to write a book after Titus Groan. Only the first few chapters (or is it chapter!) remains legible.
Kavita, if you're still reading this thread, I hope you're enjoying the novels. I'd like to hear your take on all this ^_^
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Jane
Harrison
Registered User
(7/20/01 9:45:28 am)
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Re: Madness Takes Its Toll: Please Have Exact Change
Hi:
I am re-reading Gormenghast now. My mother has been ill and in hospital, so I was out a lot. She is home today. So give me a day or two and I'll post a question. I have so many.
<smiling> [Especially on the possibility that the castle is indeed a functional story character.]
Janie
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LuCy
Unregistered User
(8/7/01 11:26:50 am)
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Reading Gormenghast
I have to admit, that I had never heard of this until a friend in London suggested it to me. The caricatures of the people, the poking fun at ritual, all of it was brilliant and amazing.
However, I have to admit...I hated Steerpike. I was never so happy than when he died; but I have issue with anyone so hypocritical and nasty that they have to use people like pawn-chips. There was nothing about him I admired, nothing about him I found amusing. Like most of the characters of the book, something inwardly made me recoil. It alarms me how many young ladies who watched the miniseries found him to be such a heart-throb...
I wasn't all that thrilled with Titus either, in and of himself. I did, however, find myself wanting to weep when Fuschia died. She dared to have a romantic soul, and it was wrung out of her, turned against her, and crushed...she was the REAL tragic hero, in my mind.
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La
Reine Noire
Registered User
(8/8/01 6:54:52 pm)
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Heroes and Heroines
Steerpike in the novel was certainly a disagreeable character. I think they did seek to humanise him a bit in the miniseries, especially through his relationship with Fuchsia. I found I could sympathise with him in the miniseries in a way that I could not in the novel. I'm not sure if this was Peake's intention, but I rather liked the ambiguity of the situation.
A lot of it also had to do with the way the character was played. Jonathan Rhys-Meyers (definitely a favourite of mine) gave him a creepy sort of charm, or so I thought.
I wasn't fond of Titus either. He seemed too petulant and spoilt, which truly left Steerpike in an odd position in my mind, since he was meant to be the villain, but I truly couldn't feel any sympathy for the "hero" of the story.
And I have to agree with you on how you felt about Fuchsia - she did break my heart completely, especially during those last scenes before she died.
~Kavita
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Gregor9
Registered User
(8/9/01 8:09:14 am)
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No Heroes
One of the most interesting aspects of "Gormenghast" I think is that there's no easily definable hero. Fuschia can lay as much claim to the title as anybody. They're all of them less than whole, all fractured creatures in some manner. I remember a particular passage in one of the books about Mr. Flay and how he had learned to be comfortable sleeping on the cold stone floor, which makes him seem both noble and oppressed simultaneously.
In that sense it reminds me of "Princess Mononoke", in that everyone has their agenda, and no one is entirely villainous, no one is entirely redeemed.
Greg
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(8/15/01 7:21:50 am)
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Re: No Heroes
Well, even though Steerpike is described as physically unattractive in the book, he is still attractive in the sense that he is the only character that has the energy to change anything. Even Titus, who hates GG can only muster up enough energy to whine most of the book/miniseries (which is why he is such an unattractive character :P)
I agree w/Kavita and Greg - there is such ambiguity surrounding this concept of the hero... I wonder if it was Peake's deliberate intention to have no one to fill the role. I think that was why I liked the book more - the narrative did not really focus on any one character unlike the miniseries which set up Steerpike/Titus as main characters...
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