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Author
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Comment
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(11/19/02 9:36:23 am)
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Seals etc.
Jane, I like your description of stories...
Katie, the idea of animals who take off their animal shapes and thereby transform into humans occurs in the New World as well. Don't know of any seal wife or seal husband stories per se, but I wrote my dissertation on a story called "Night Hunter and Day Hunter," about a seal hunter who (literally) falls in with the seals (who are in human form at home). He ultimately returns home in the form of a seal to take revenge on the brother who tried to murder him. I found it interesting that, ethnographically, there was hunting magic the hunter's wife or lover had to perform while he was away, identifying the wife with the game, a sympathetic-magic connection... My personal theory, having spent time around harbor seals from childhood, is that everywhere you have harbor seals you will have stories about them becoming human. There is just something about those whiskery faces looking at you out of the water, and splashing around and carrying on at night.
Regarding "isolated" oral traditions... Are there any? According to one of my professors, after tobacco reached Europe, it took only 100 years for seeds, knowledge of how to grow it and smoking technology to circumnavigate the globe, this in the 16th century mind you, to reach the Yupik/Inupiat (Eskimo) in Alaska, who had no prior use of smoking tobacco. (Tobacco was grown for snuffing just south of Alaska.). There is an archaeological site on the central north Canadian coast where a Chinese plate or bowl turned up in a stratum dated ca. 12th-13th century. It's approximately equidistant from its point of origin either way, so there's no telling whether it got there via Europe and the Vikings, or instead through Siberia and across the Bering Straits. Where trade goes, stories go too.
Judith
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(11/19/02 12:16:03 pm)
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Re: Seals etc.
As Judith said. First you have to find a truly isolated culture that was and remained isolated, and there just aren't many. People tend to wander, and they take their baggage with them wherever they go. Japan, for instance, was fairly isolated for a great amount of its history, but was never totally cut off from the rest of the world, even during the period when it was national policy to be isolated. There's an easily recognizable version of Aesop's "The Ant and the Grasshopper" in Japanese folktales, but I'm betting it got there in any one of a number of ways rather than arising spontaneously.
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Yellow McMaggie
Unregistered User
(11/19/02 1:49:36 pm)
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Independent development of tales
I am quite aware of this - the dissemination of tales, stories, ideas, knowledge, etc....
I can't remember at this moment, however, what tales or stories I have read about that have been thought to have developed independently. Perhaps it was in Claude Levi-Strauss' work. However, I do know of an ancient myth/tale that is found amongst two separate indigenous cultures - one aboriginal and the other a South American but I must refer to my notes, which I can not find at this moment.
I prefer to remain open about both the dissemination of tales vs. the independent development of tales until enough information about the tales is known, for example.
I do "tend" to believe that the swan maiden/ selkie tale disseminated. I am fascinated by it the cultural variants, as the tale type (AT type 400 I believe) is found throughout the world.
I apologize if I come across sounding overly defensive. In my current work I am struggling with what I would term as the "independent development of my own ideas". Just some great PhD obstacles and stress- coming up with a great idea in the later stages of my work and then later discovering that it has been done or said before. But who is to say that they are my own ideas or that I am borrowing them from another....
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(11/20/02 3:48:52 am)
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Don't forget your tutu when you travel
With swan maidens being of (we believe) Russian origin (see the Rusulkas) and knowing how many Russian sailors and fishermen traversed regularly the waters around Alaska and Canada, I would be hesitant to call any swan maiden shapeshifting story found in Native tales up there original and stand-alone creations.
Call me crazy.
Jane
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Auntie
Unregistered User
(11/20/02 12:54:50 pm)
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children of the planet
This may be rather simple-minded of me, but the one thing every person on this planet, in every time period, has in common is a mother and a father. I'm sure lots of children through time have lost one or the other, only to have the good "real" parent replaced by a "bad" one (complete with their own nasty progeny from a previous relationship). What child, no matter the background or time, has not resented doing chores? Not just resented, felt mistreated beyond tears! Who rescues such unfortunate (but secretly brilliant, talented, charming) children? Why, someone from outside the family, of course! And how much better it would be if this rescuer were wealthy, titled, et cetera...... If you haven't already read these books long ago, you might try Bruno Bettelheim's "The Uses of Enchantment", or Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces". I know Bettelheim is rather out of favor now, but I think on the subject of fairy tales, he's quite good. Good luck with your project! What fun!
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LilyMayhew2002
Registered User
(11/22/02 5:41:21 am)
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Re: Ah, stories. . .
Jane: In pondering this subject, I realised that your quote "Stories are magpie critters, ignoring border guards, tribal affiliations, picking up a bit of lace here, a fur boot there, crossdressing, and often singing inappropriate songs." sums everything up in a wonderfully visual way: I'd like to quote you in my dissertation - is this OK? If so, is itb possible to have any details on who you are (for referencing purposes)? You can email me at lily@efesbeer.com, or post a message on this board. Would be very much obliged.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(11/22/02 7:32:51 am)
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check out Jane's web page
She references several biographical sites, which may help you. Plus, it is a pleasure to visit. Side note to Jane: Thank you, Jane, for your advice to would-be writers.
Jess
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LilyMayhew2002
Registered User
(11/23/02 2:05:14 am)
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Re: check out Jane's web page
Cheers Jess! Jane: I like the Website
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(11/25/02 2:51:42 am)
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Permission
Been away at NCTE, not ignoring your request.
Of course you can quote it.
Jane
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lilymayhew2000
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 11:05:37 am)
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cheers Jane
I've been moving house and had no internet connection: and wasn't ignorring your response either! Your "Magpie critters" quote has really got my imagination going - I'm planning to build A-life story-horses for my final project now...
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(11/30/02 3:49:54 am)
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Quotes
Quotes R Us. This board is an all-service agency!
Jane
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