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Author
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Comment
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enchantmentweaver
Registered User
(1/11/03 3:50:57 pm)
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teaching stories for young men
I am looking for teaching stories that might begin to reshape the way we teach young men to view the feminine in the culture, and particularly ones that are aimed at a pre-adolescent to teen male population.
I remember a story from the Arthurian legend, I think, where a knight had a choice of having his bride be a hag by day or a beautiful woman by night – Does anyone remember the name of this story?
Also I am looking for stories involving hag/witch characters that turn into princesses as a result of a young man being willing to see past appearances and kiss the hag…
Any stories where the prince or hero rescusing a woman in an empowering context vs. a context that is disempowering to the one being "rescued"?
Part of the context of my project will be to address the growing use of/addiction to pornography – violence against women, attitudes that might unconsciously denigrate the feminine in the culture
I am looking for stories that have a powerful draw with young men.
Any other fairy tales/stories/adaptations/ -old or new that come to mind as being useful and instructive?
Blessings, margaret
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tlchang37
Registered User
(1/11/03 4:32:12 pm)
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Re: teaching stories for young men
Margaret asked: "I remember a story from the Arthurian legend, I think, where a knight had a choice of having his bride be a hag by day or a beautiful woman by night..."
Sir Gawain and the Loathly Lady is at least one version of that.
Tara
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Jess
Unregistered User
(1/12/03 12:22:00 am)
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Try the White Cat
I love this story. The Cat is definitely in control, but she still needs the prince to break the spell. The author, Madame D'Aulney (sp), was no shrinking violet either. Reading her biography to the boys would despell any myths about women being historically and universally weak.
Jess
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judithwq
Registered User
(1/12/03 4:49:01 pm)
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Re: stories for young men
I don't know how young these men are-if they are 9-12 a story called Ronia the Robber's Daughter, by Astrid Lindgren (of Pippi Longstocking Fame), portrays a relationship between a boy and girl whose robber dads are enemies and they become best buddies. I absolutely love the portrayal of Ronia, who has a "spring yell", and the boy's relationship to her-
Not quite a fairy tale, but very magical and about loyalty and sovereignty, important issues for young people.
Judith
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/16/03 9:23:22 am)
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Re: stories for young men
I'm a woman, but I have to say that for me, the powerful, transformative possibilities of folkloric material have to live comfortably side by each with my desire to read/write/watch porn (I'm not going to get into the "good erotica/bad erotica" debate here; the word "porn" will do quite adequately for now). They're both valuable, and one is a poor replacement for the other. I'm wary of using the word "addiction" to describe people's desire to have lots of sexually explicit material, especially the type with content that some might judge to be morally dodgy. A lot of folklore has morally dodgy content too. Some of the stuff that juices us is not nice at all. I think the trick is in learning to understand what needs the nasty stuff fills and why, and learning to simultaneously indulge our occasional desires to be not nice *and* to understand and treat each other with love and respect. I'm not certain that I'm explaining myself very well, but I do think it's doable.
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(1/16/03 8:31:38 pm)
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King Henry
> Also I am looking for stories involving hag/witch characters that turn into princesses as a result of a young man being willing to see past appearances and kiss the hag?
Steeleye Span (?) did a version of "King Henry" (I think that's its title) in which King Henry encounters a monster who sets various tasks for him. It's been ages since I heard it so my memory of it is vague. One of the tasks is to feed the monster:
More meat, more meat you give to me,
you King Henry, more meat you give to me.
He slaughters his horse, I think. Finally the monster demands he lie down with it -- he's brave enough to and in the morning it's a beautiful princess he's disenchanted.
I always felt a personal connection with the song because I am hypoglycemic and become shambling and monstrous until fed.
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/17/03 12:10:13 am)
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King Henry
I wrote a comic book take on "King Henry" for which the incredible Charles Vess (hi, Charles!) did the pictures. Set it in Henry VIII's time and the monster becomes Nan Boleyn. The story is being told to the young Elizabeth on the night her mother is beheaded.
Jane
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enchantmentweaver
Registered User
(1/21/03 9:14:32 pm)
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teaching stories for young men and a response to Nalo
I would like to thank every one who responded to my requests for teaching stories for young men. Shortly after I posted my computer "Old Bessie" started misbehaving and I had to take her in for a check up. So i am just now checking back in. You all have given me some great feedback and resources.
Nalo, I really appreciate your comments and you've given me some food for thought. I work with the wives of men who are seriously "addicted" to internet pornography to the point where their involvement with it has begun to take over and destroy their lives . I am not speaking to anyone's healthy appreciation and admiration for the female body - I am speaking to a context where healthy intimacy with a real live woman has been replaced by fantasy and where the preoccupation with such fantasy cannot be stopped- I could tell you many very painful stories regarding this particular issue so I am a bit sensitive. But as this issue is dear to my heart I am also very open to other perspectives in order to expand my own. So I thank you for your thoughts.
Interestingly, I am also drawn to know more about the fantastic imagination - I love Tolkien's work on this topic from "On Fairy Stories" and I was recently reading some of Owen Barfield's material regarding the "sanctified" imagination. (his term) - He speaks of the transformational power that the wise imagination can offer our contemporary, complex world. This pre-occupation with the type of fantasy that is involved in pornography addiction - (and I really am talking about an addiction) seems to me to be at the opposite end of that spectrum. just some thoughts...
I also want to make it clear that I am not attempting to moralize or preach to any adult who does not consider their occasional excursions into pornography to be a problem. But I do have the opportunity to mentor some young men who are asking some serious questions. I thought the best way to move through this opportunity was by offering them some stories...That way I can get out of the way and let the stories weave their own magic.
blessings, margaret
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enchantmentweaverhotmailcom
Unregistered User
(1/21/03 10:16:14 pm)
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PS - question for Jane
Jane - where can I get a copy of your comic book take on Henry VIII? - the concept of this story being told to Elizabeth on the night before her mother was beheaded really strikes a chord with me. I would really like to get my hands on this.
blessings, margaret
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janeyolenaolcom
Unregistered User
(1/21/03 11:36:14 pm)
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ask Vess
You can probably buy a copy from Charles Vess (also on this board.) Check out his website: Greenman Press.
Jane
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emchantmentweaver
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 8:25:56 am)
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Jane Yolen's King Henry Story
I went to the Greenman Press site in search of Jane Yolen's King Henry Story - It is from "The Book of Ballands and Sagas", issue number two. Unfortunately that issue is out of print and unavailable from the site. If anyone has a copy of this that they would be willing to part with please email me at enchantmentweaver@hotmail.com - or if you have any ideas where I might purchase this from a secondary market, please let me know.
margaret
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 9:37:18 am)
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suggestion
I suggest emailing Charles himself since there are several editions of the story.
Jane
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/22/03 10:01:53 am)
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Re: suggestion
Thanks for your clarification, Margaret. Yes, I can see how painful it can be for all concerned to replace your connection with someone real with a connection to an intangible image. I have to say that I--for myself--would still be reluctant to label that an addiction. To me, it makes it sound as though the desire for pornographic images is the problem, when in fact the problem seems to be, as you've said, the inability to connect with real people. I also wonder about the implication that it's okay to consume porn so long as it's only an occasional treat. I don't think it needs be occasional to be okay. I know plenty of people, myself included, who seek out explicit sexual imagery something close to daily, and who also are able to seek out daily, satisfying connections with friends and lovers, and sometimes to share their enjoyment in the material they find. (This is an issue close to my heart as well, as you might be able to tell).
But now I'm off topic. To get back on track; how about some of the re-visioned folk/fairy tales as a way of looking at more whole concepts of womanhood? The anthologies edited by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow might be great for that.
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enchantmentweaver
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 10:23:45 am)
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Jane's King Henry
well, i didn't pursue that avenue at first (emailing Charles), because when I went to the site I didn't see an email address - i thought perhaps Charles didn't want people to have it. After I looked through his message board I found it and I have emailed him.
Jane, i believe the lady with the Birkenstock shoes and feathers in her hair may have whispered in my ear. Right before I checked in with the board last night, I told my nineteen year old son and his friend the story of Anne Boleyn's beheading. I was in London two years ago, and stood at the place at the tower of London where Anne lost her head. I am not sure how or why this story came up but I was standing animated in the kitchen acting out the beheading of Anne. And I found my mind wandering to Elizabeth because when I visited Hampton Court they showed us how Elizabeth was taken down the hall to see her mother the night before she was beheaded.
So then when I came to the board and saw the postings I was a little bit astounded. I feel this story is significant in some way to my project. I am also wondering if this is the King Henry story that Judith referred to in her post - Judith - what do you think?
Jane, I am curious as to how you decided to pursue the angle of telling the story to Elizabeth the night before Anne's beheading? I know this is probably not relevant to why or how I would draw from the story, but I do have a curiosity about it.
blessings, margaret
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enchantmentweaver
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 11:02:42 am)
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i got a little carried away too Nalo
well, nalo, I definitely went off topic too, that's for sure. But I am a very spiral thinker and all of this does have relevance to the use of stories even when it doesn't appear to be so...so bear with me, when I ramble off, I promise this always does tend to spiral back to a story for me. I was thinking maybe you were calling me to incorporate an alternative perspective and to choose some stories that expressed a more balanced viewpoint. The reason I was asking for suggestions for stories that are positive potrayals of the feminine is precisely because I don't want to go off on a radical agenda. If you do want to continue this conversation please feel free to email at enchantmentweaver@hotmail.com -
Margaret
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(1/22/03 11:31:22 am)
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King Henry
> So then when I came to the board and saw the postings I was a little bit astounded. I feel this story is significant in some way to my project. I am also wondering if this is the King Henry story that Judith referred to in her post - Judith - what do you think?
Margaret, it sounds to me as if Jane based her story on the King Henry ballad I'm talking about, though I don't know if it's the same version. I don't remember any mention of number, though I think the historical Henry VIII did come to have a lot of ballads attached to him. There are other, previous King Henrys, of course. This is way out of my field, and I don't know how to go about researching the history of particular ballads.
You know, the kind of compulsive behavior you're talking about is for me reminiscent of Odysseus' various perils and lapses, e.g., Circe and the lotus eaters -- dream images and sorcery causing him to abandon the quest for his real wife, from whom he has been apart for so long.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 12:18:17 pm)
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Two cents
Very interesting completely diverse threads going here. Hmm, I am now interested in the Henry the VIII story - one that is fascinating from an historical perspective, would love to read your takes.
Re erotic/pornographic images/connections. I think what Nalo is getting at is that eroticism is a natural and normal part of the human psychi and need not be denigrating to women. In fact, a normal healthy woman will probably not have difficulty with erotic/pornographic images or stories - ditto for men - provided they aren't horrifically violent. There are, in fact, a number of threads on this board alone that discuss erotic stories. What seems to be the issue isn't eroticsim or even an addiction to porn, but rather an inability to differentiate between what is real and what is fantasy, or worse yet, choosing fantasy over reality, probably as an escape mechanism.
Choosing stories that show women as having no sexual side (i.e. wholly chaste) is as much a fantasy as pure porn. It might be interesting to show these stories in counterpoint to emphasis the exageration.
Two cents only. Hope I am not way off thread.
Jess
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enchantmentweaver
Unregistered User
(1/22/03 12:25:18 pm)
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Odysseus
hmmm...Odysseus - Circe and the lotus eaters....judith that's a very interesting angle to pursue....I love that tale in the Odysseus legend - i have often associated the Circe and the Lotus Eaters story with addiction (sorry for the term, Nalo) ...i.e. as a falling under a spell of a lusty enchantment. But I had totally missed the connection that the distraction took Odysseus off course in the pursuit of his real wife - This would be an interesting addition to my work with the young ones as well as the work I do with "the wives". This is really good "stuff", thank you Judith.
Didn't Odysseus end up leaving behind a huge number of the men who were journeying with him because they were overtaken by the spell and couldn't break it? It's been so long ago since I've read the legend. I also remember something important about the marriage bed - i sort of have this archetypal image popping into view - wasn't the bed hewn from a great tree that stood at the center of the house? This tree business may be off track but again, I am a spiral thinker - I feel this might be leading somewhere. Any other stories that come to mind with a similar theme?
margaret
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/23/03 12:09:27 am)
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why Henry VIII
Since the ballad is simply called King Henry, I thought that gave me leeway to choose WHICH Henry. (Could have been a French Henri, too.) I chose Henry VIII because of the hunting theme and the attitude towards women in the ballad. (Courtesey, allowing the woman her way in bed.) And also because I knew more about VIII than I did about the first seven.
According to my research, young Elizabeth was ensconced in a house some miles from where her mother would have been in the Tower.
The story took off from there.
Jane
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/23/03 6:45:07 pm)
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Re: why Henry VIII
Ah, swept away, by eroticism, by enchantment. And yes, Jess, I was trying to say something like that. And Margaret, well called; I confess that my agenda is often radical. My world is going to have to change a lot if it's ever to make room for people like me to thrive in it. But I realise that's not the same for everyone. Judith, I think the story of Odysseus and Circe is a brilliant way to look at this topic! Yes, Odysseus and his men are thoroughly seduced by Circe's fantasms, and they forget the real women they have waiting at home. IIRC, some of them never remember them--aren't they the ones who get turned into pigs? So not only do they lose their wives, they never attain the false dreams that Circe promised them. They don't even get to have *her,* the real Circe.
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enchantmentweaverhotmailcom
Unregistered User
(1/23/03 9:47:32 pm)
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teaching stories for young men
oh, goodness - yes Jess this is a rather diverse and interesting thread - we've got both King Henry and Odysseus going here as well as commentary on erotica- it will be interesting to see where this will all converge.
And yes, again, I do agree with you and nalo that sexuality and all the "stuff" that orbits around it is a natural part of our human inheritance. I feel this was a good discussion, and relevant because you are issuing a little warning to me to NOt throw the baby out with the bathwater - i.e. convey the message that human sexuality in and of itself is bad/wrong. So when choosing stories I need to keep the whole picture in mind.
Jane - i stand corrected - "We" were shown where Elizabeth came down the hall at Hampton Court during the processional on the WEDDING day of Henry's marriage to Jane Seymour - not the night of Anne's beheading. My traveling companion corrected me when I mentioned your research. Boy was I off base - ah, the pitfalls of approaching crone-dom. But anyhow, I must have been tuning in with the telling of Anne's beheading and the thoughts about little "Liz"- its just that old age is a settin' in and the wires get a little crossed these days.
margaret
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