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Author
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Comment
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dorisi
Registered User
(2/4/03 2:36:18 pm)
ezSupporter
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Transgressions versus societal rules.
Transgressions versus societal rules.
I'm going to be on a panel titled ‘Ruffling feathers' at a literary festival and I'd like to focus my talk around fairytales. I know there are many tales in which the transgression is a necessary part of growing up and acquiring knowledge, both of the world and the self. But there are also tales in which breaking the rules is punished - we are after all social creatures and societal laws are crucial to our group-well-being. Incest gets punished in some fairytales, as do lying, cheating, being greedy and deceiving, which can all be seen as transgressions of moral rules. I'm interested in what types of transgressions are ‘rewarded' with growth and what are punished. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this and also fairytales that exemplify this. I know there's been a past topic of transgressions, but although I tried, my rudimentary computer skills failed me and I couldn't locate it in the archives!
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Jess
Unregistered User
(2/4/03 4:12:15 pm)
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Check the archives
We had a long thread on this topic about a year ago.
Jess
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(2/4/03 5:45:03 pm)
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Re: Transgressions versus societal rules.
Here is the link to the discussion. By all means, let's add to it here if we have more to say...
www.surlalunefairytales.c...c_pg1.html
Heidi
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dorisi
Registered User
(2/4/03 6:47:37 pm)
ezSupporter
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Thanks
Thanks Heidi,
I had tried to locate it but failed. (Not really surprising considering that my relationship to computers is somewhat like that of an elephant's to ballet shoes...)
Doris
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/5/03 12:25:01 am)
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theft
The one transgression that the Brothers Grimm in particular seem to condone is theft (as noted by Jack Zipes). Thieves can become kings quite easily in these tales, the one that springs to mind is:
Two giants are fighting over possessing a magical instrument (7 league boots, cloak of invisibility, whatever), our hero steps in and promises to arbitrate fairly between the two giants, and when they hand over the goods, he swipes it and runs away. Theft is also the standout feature of the english Jack cycle of fairy tales-although later on moralising tellers added the caveat "the giant stole the gold from jack's father and so it was rightfully Jack's anyway".
In fact, theft is one of the almost universally admired transgressions. Odysseus is the grandson of the light fingered autolycus and just as wily. Then there's a story that when Christ was being crucified, the Romanies (Gypsies, Egyptians, depending on what time you're from) stole the nails that the Romans were about to use, and since that time God has forgiven them for all theft. Or what about Ali Baba, who steals from the thieves (and then murders them to keep his ill gotten gains)
There are numerous other examples. Lying is another trait that both the Grimms and Perrault find particularly admirable, as is deceit (see the shocking treatment of poor old Rumpelstiltskin).
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dorisi
Registered User
(2/5/03 4:03:29 am)
ezSupporter
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Theft
The theft that gets rewarded in fairytales seems to involve stealing from the bad, the powerful or the rich. That seems to be deemed morally acceptable. Are there any fairytales though where someone gets rewarded for stealing from the virtuous? I can't think of any...?
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/5/03 12:52:50 pm)
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me neither ..
I can't think of any major transgressions that take place in a fairy tale without some sort of punishment being meted out.
That's a fact that probably backs up Zipes's whole theory about fairy tales being used as a form of societal conditioning, or social control. Or a reflection that tales with dubious moral implications or unlikely to find a publisher.
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Midori
Unregistered User
(2/6/03 2:41:17 am)
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transgression heaven
Trickster is probably the king of transgressors who gets away quite literally at times with murder. He he has been known to sleep with his daughter, the dead, anyone he feels like, steal all nature of magic/ sacred objects, eat until he blows up, cannibalize a child (this from a Tibetan trickster--Rabbit) and get away with it. Sometimes he is punished--but just as often he is not. Sometimes his transgressions result in positive changes for the community (Legba ends a famine in a village when he has sex with all the corpses of pretty young women) sometimes they don't (the parents of the child Rabbit eats try to punish him, but he escapes). I guess what I am sayingis, no discussion of transgression is really complete without looking at the dynamic of trickster.
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dorisi
Registered User
(2/6/03 4:21:54 am)
ezSupporter
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Transgression heaven
Thanks Midori - I'd managed to forget about Trickster! I'd had some blinkers on, being focussed on characters who grew/matured/entered a different stage of their development as a result of their transgressions. Beauty ignoring her promise to return within a certain period of time; Psyche and the candle etc. Trickster transgressions seem to have an entirely different function within the stories. It's making me think about how many different motivations characters initially have for their transgressions - curiosity, greed, gullibility, impatience..., which has started me trying to remember the list of the seven deadly sins. The only ones I can remember right now are greed, lust...and my memory's petering out here (where's Peter Cook when you need him?) (Ugh! I just realised that I've produced a wincingly awful, unintended pun). I wonder whether there are any of the seven sins that haven't figured as a motivation for transgression that results in growth??
Doris
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bielie
Registered User
(2/6/03 2:50:06 pm)
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Trolls
In Norse Fairy tales trolls are fair game. They can be robbed, maimed, killed or whatever with impunity. And the hero is always rewarded. It one story the hero kills the Troll king's daugther and then he grills her and serves her to her own father, who is unaware of the fraud.
It seems to depend on who is regarded as the enemy, and the enemy does not seem to have any human (or in this case, troll) rights! Humans on the other hand has to be treated with respect and humility, and this is also rewarded.
As for trickster: In South Africa we have two: Jackal and Hare. Jackal always tricks Wolf, and gets away with it, because Wolf is bad. His motivation is usually to teach Wolf a lesson. Hare, on the other hand, tricks the decent animals, and he is invariably punished for his sins. His motivation is usually laziness and greed.
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Kerrie
Moderator
(2/6/03 2:59:27 pm)
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Transgressive links...
Here are a few more links to discussions on transgression:
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2001/may2001/godfathermother_page2.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2001/may2001/godfathermother_page3.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2001/may2001/manners_page1.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2002/jun2002/wiscon_pg3.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2002/aug2002/goblinmarket_pg1.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2000/dec2000/transformation_pg2.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2002/aug2002/oldtopicrevisited.html
Hope these help! Sorry about my silence lately. I feel like amermaid out of water being home all the time! ;)
Sugarplum dreams,
Kerrie
Edited by: Kerrie at: 2/6/03 7:24:16 pm
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bielie
Registered User
(2/6/03 3:06:14 pm)
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Challenging God/Wrestling with God
You said:
>>I know there are many tales in which the transgression is a necessary part of growing up and acquiring knowledge, both of the world and the self.
While the Bible does not condone sin, there is one taboo that is invariably rewarded in the Bible, and that is to challenge God.
Jacob wrestles with God in a classic death-and-resurrection scene, and changes completely. Before, he was a trickster. After God wounded him in his hip he is more mature, and asks his brother Esau for forgiveness.
Abraham challenges God on the destruction of Sodom. He bargains with him like any modern Arab would in a souq, and God rewards him for it.
Moses challenges God on his plans to destroy Israel, and is rewarded.
Jonah disobeys God, and although he is not rewarded directly, he does learn a valuable lesson about God's grace. Hopefully he is changed by this lesson, we do not know since the story ends rather abruptly.
And so the list goes on.
I think these examples fit your criteria of "growing up and acquiring knowledge, both of the world and the self"?
Regards
Bielie
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dorisi
Registered User
(2/6/03 7:18:39 pm)
ezSupporter
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Thanks
Kerrie, thanks for all those links - that's a great help. And Bielie, those biblical examples have given me something extra to think about.
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briggsw
Unregistered User
(2/7/03 11:17:28 am)
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Biblical examples
Those Biblical characters are staying engaged with God (rather than ignoring him), and they're bold (but not egotist). "Come boldly to the throne of grace." God seems to respect boldness. As a teacher, I can relate: challenge me, tell me I'm wrong, but stay engaged!
"Iron Hans" (stealing the key) is also relevant.
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