|
Author
|
Comment
|
Jess
Unregistered User
(1/1/03 8:06:02 pm)
|
Thoughts
Re: child abandonment/promises of such: it seems that fairy tales are full of cases where children are undervalued, abadoned because of starvation or cravings. Think Hansel and Gretel, Tom Thumb, Rupenzel, the White Cat, as well as Rumpelstiltskin. What makes Rumple different in some respects is that it is the king's first born, and assuming the child is male, he would be the heir to the throne. By taking the child Rumple is gaining power over the king and the kingdom's future. I am not sure where this comment is leading, but this has always struck me as an important factor in the story.
Re: religion and moral codes. Jane, I think, has commented either in this thread or in past threads that Rumple is possibly a Jew and thus was considered different, feared, and possibly immoral. One might also note on the "justice" code that athiests were not allowed to be witnesses or jury members in much of the Western world until the mid 19th century because of an assumed inability to swear an oath to tell the truth. How this rates in Lewis' structure I am not sure. I think we can all agree, however, that professed religion does not make someone truthful and moral or vice-versa.
Re: Physical disability. While I am not sure of the source of this, I am fairly sure that in some cultures physical disability was ascribed to God's wrath on the parents of the disabled or the disabled himself. Thus, Hugo's discription of people abusing the Hunchback for his appearance rather than his soul is really not consistent. I think Hugo was making a commentary on this ridiculous notion, i.e. that the appearance of a person somehow reflects the goodness within. Thankfully, science and culture (probably because of people like Hugo) have created better understanding and tolerance...or at least we hope. Anyway, the fact that fairytales use disfigurement to impart evil is probably an extension of this thought. Stories like the Frog story (where one sister spits out Toads and the other gems) prove, however, that even in fairytales disfigurement can sometimes be a disguise for goodness.
Rosemary, how about a Rumple story where he is indeed disguised good - afterall, he saves the princess, gives the baby back, etc. Let your muse run this way for a moment.
Jess
|
Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(1/2/03 12:27:58 am)
|
Re: Thoughts
Pat Wrede writers a "good" Rumple during an incident in her "Searching for Dragons." It is a humorous twist on the character and worth reading. I, like Leah, am a fan.
Heidi
|
Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/2/03 3:55:00 am)
|
Book
A reminder: Vivian Vande Velde has written a book of Rumplestiltskin stories that basically covers ALL these ideas.
Jane
|
Jess
Unregistered User
(1/2/03 8:13:05 am)
|
Reminder
More books to read! Thanks Heidi and Jane. Who was it that said there is never an original thought?
Jess
|
Judith
Berman
Registered User
(1/2/03 11:18:44 am)
|
Outlandish physical appearance
A few more thoughts about outlanders, outsiders, deformity and strangeness. Strange physical appearance is by no means always the province of the despised or feared outlander but is often associated with liminal roles or liminal calendrical periods that can be very central to a society: the shaman with his uncut, uncombed hair, the rock musician, the ritual dancer, Carnival, Halloween. In some cultures, deformities and oddities like twins are a mark of the spirit world. Liminal does not mean marginal but on the threshold between one and the other.
What people choose to masquerade as has always been curious for me. Here in Philadelphia we usually have the New Year's Mummers' Parade (though it was rained out this year). Historically it has been groups of working class men spending untold hours and thousands of dollars to dress up and parade as women, African and Native Americans (blackface was outlawed in the 1970s), cartoon characters, animals and more, all in sequins, glittery cloth, makeup and acres of ostrich plumes. In the US, for Halloween, people dress up as monsters or the dead, for Mardi Gras, the emphasis is seemingly to undress. But in English carnival, I am told, most people cross-dress, and when I was in Penzance years ago, we happened to encounter a union parade where all of the burly men were dressed up as charwomen, for no particular calendrical occasion that I could see.
Such liminal roles and liminal times often have great symbolic significance that in part has to do with the contrast with everyday life. I wouldn't want to argue that all monstrous and outlandish figures in fairytales are representations of the abhorred Outlander.
Judith
|
Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(1/4/03 7:56:41 pm)
|
Re: Thoughts
I've ordered Vivian Vande Velde's _The Rumpletstiltskin Problem_ from the library. Not much came up at Amazon. I've got some notes for four Kind/Unkind sisters showing their different motives. I like a single, complex R better than several Kind/Unkind R's. :-)
I like a pattern where the moral elements all sort of balance each
other out, as in my version of "The King Who Would Have a Beautiful
Wife" at www.rosemarylake.com/fals..._queen.htm
I wonder if there is an undercurrent of R as palace moneylender? He has run of the palace (unless he teleports). He can offer plenty of money, at a harsh price. He might very well be interested in getting custody of a baby prince, or having a secret to blackmail the queen with. Moneylender makes sense, but could be offensive. Rasputin?
Rosemary
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 1/5/03 3:38:28 pm
|
Jess
Unregistered User
(1/4/03 9:29:53 pm)
|
Adult version?
How about this for a thought - what if R is really the father of the baby and hence wants to keep the baby (it is his own). Would be consistent with the more vile aspects of R - makes him more of the villian. Anyone seen anything with respect to this? All kinds of inferences could be made with him being alone in a coersive situation all night with the miller's daughter. Okay, I guess I have been watching too many bad movies.
Jess
|
Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(1/4/03 11:50:47 pm)
|
Re: Adult version?
Of course, all of these are listed on SurLaLune, but in the more mature vein, you might also want to read "Spinners" by Napoli and Tchen as well as "Straw Into Gold" by Schmidt. It's been a few years since I read "Spinners" but I think I remember that the R as father theme is explored more there.
Heidi
|
Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(1/5/03 7:59:50 am)
|
Re: Adult version?
I don't think this counts as a spoiler since readers find this fact out very near to the beginning of the book but if you're not interested in knowing any secrets about Spinners - don't read on.
In Spinners, R is the miller's daughter's biological father- if I remember correctly. He wants the baby, mostly, because he's the true grandfather.
Laura Mc
|
Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(1/5/03 3:28:18 pm)
|
Re: Adult version?
I can't find any version in Calvino, tho I was thinking he had a good "Three Spinners."
On a quick look through Ashliman's "Name of the Helper" file at
www.pitt.edu/~dash/type05...egenduemer
I saw several stories about deceitful spinning, but Grimm's was the only story where a baby was promised. Some of the stories are not about spinning or marriage or deceiving a third party. In the majority, the penalty is that the helper would get an unwilling bride.
The only other baby in the 19 stories was not knowingly promised; just a blank check "Anything you like." This was an existing baby of a respectable widow, who needed her sow cured by a well-dressed lady (fairy). The fairy volunteers: "But this I'll let you know: I cannot, by the law we live under, take your bairn till the third day; and not then, if you can tell me my right name."
Besides Grimms's, the only story about spinning gold is from Thorpe's _Yule-Tide Stories_. No baby mentioned; she would have to marry the old man instead of the king's son.
I wonder if there is room for a longish story with some kind of trial, where different interpretations of character can be argued.
Rosemary
|
|
