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Author
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Comment
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schlameal
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 3:39 am)
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deconstructing fairytales
As an adult now i look back at the fairytales i used to read as a child and see how they preconditioned us to desire what is seen as perfect, normal and beautiful. The princess was always, beautiful, with long flowing hair and a dainty little waist, how always succeeded in getting her man and living happily ever after in the end. How are children, especially little girls, supposed to grow up with confidence in themselves if they are constantly surrounded by literature and pictures of what is seen as normal. Can the not very pretty or slightly tubby girl become the princess in a story for once?
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Midori
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 4:01 am)
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sanitized
What you are describing in fairy tales is really the later sanitized, Disneyized, and literary versions of the stories. Many of the early tales are far less concerned with the "beauty" of the Princess then they are with what she capable of doing. There may be a generic description of her "beauty" but it was often not enough to totally dominate the story--Maria Morevna is remembered for being "the Wise"--not her hair or her waist. Molly Whuppie for her ability to outwit a giant. Tattercoats and the Armless Maiden for going through periods of undesirability (but courage and productiveness in that they are actively seeking to change themselves) the Loathsome Lady for her intelligence and all the beastly brides which at will can turn into Monkeys, Snakes, Foxes and tree stumps.
Definitions of beauty have changed so much over the years--to be "plump" was at one time a sign of beauty and health--unlike nowadays--and I think this too is reflected in the stories in the older versions of the stories. And certainly not just the female characters came in for generic description--so do males--but again I think its so generic its really nondescript.
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schlameal
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 4:12 am)
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deconstructing fairytales
thank you for your comments. I am merely trying to assertain an understanding of what people see in the fairytales they read as a young child. I am asking these questions as i am due to write my dissertation on this topic in September and i am trying to gather as much information and opinions around this subject as i can. If you have any more relevant information about fairytales and authors of significance it would be much appreciated.
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Midori
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 4:23 am)
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Mirror Mirror
You might find a wonderful anthology helpful here: "Mirror, Mirror On the Wall; Women Writers Explore Their Favorite Fairytales," edited by Kate Bernheimer. It is a really interesting collection of essays by women writers (A.S. Byatt, Margaret Atwood, Chitra Divakaruni to name a few) looking at their responses to fairy tales--especially the female characters in them--and how it has shaped them as writers and women.
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Helen
Registered User
(6/28/03 10:32 am)
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Also ...
I would also recommend that you look at some of the collections of fairy tale retellings that are a) aimed at a YA audience, and b) written from the position that the values espoused by many bowdlerized versions, Victorian, Disney, or otherwise, do not properly reflect either the morals of the original versions, or the messages that modern society tries to convey to children. _The Knot in the Grain_, by Robin McKinley, is loosely rooted in a mythic mindset: _The Door in the Hedge_ contains more clearly linked retellings. Also, don't miss _A Wolf at the Door_ (ed. Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling), which is in the style of their other collections (i.e. _Black Thorn, White Rose) but appropriate for younger readers as well. One story therein, Jane Yolen's "Cinder Elephant," specifically addresses some of the concerns you've raised. Good luck!
Best,
Helen
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briggsw
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 6:38 pm)
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Objectivity in textual analysis
Having seen a lot of bad science at the last national pop culture conference, I have a charge about this (yes, I know you're not doing science, but still)...
I think that if your scholary work is confuses your own perceptions with the text, you'll have a problem, and I think you may be headed there. I say this because of the dainty waist thing -- I don't think I've ever seen this in a fairy tale, and it would be surprising, since dainty waists weren't fashionable until some 150 years ago I think. I think you got this from somewhere else -- illustrations in your book? Disney? and I think it's important to separate them.
Who hasn't thought something was in a text, and later said, where did I get *that*? There are books/classes on textual analysis, AND there are books/classes on psychology -- useful here not for the subject, but for the ability psychologists (often) have to treat subjective topics with objectivity.
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briggsw
Unregistered User
(6/28/03 6:45 pm)
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Beauty and acceptance
(Sorry if I got too preachy on the last comment. It's an issue I care about.)
Beauty and the Beast -- hideous hero. I think often this sort of thing is about inner beauty/ugliness anyway.
Ugly Duckling -- ugly hero. I don't like this one. We all have beastly and handsome elements, the latter which can be revealed by love; but even if we grow up to be virtuosos and the kids who ridiculed us are back working dead-end jobs ... we still wanted to be one of the group. At least I did.
There's some stories in which characters come across an ugly old woman or an ugly old dwarf, who needs help, and the ones who don't help lose out, but the one who is kind wins. There's also Snow White and Rose Red, where the dwarf is bad, but the girls still prosper by their good hearts.
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(6/28/03 10:49 pm)
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Re: Beauty and acceptance
As always, I would recommend a good read of "From the Beast to the Blonde" by Marina Warner before starting your dissertation. It's not really the tales themselves you want to study, but modern interpretations of them by illustrators, authors, movie makers, and advertisers. And Disney, of course, in particular. Fairy tales are dumped upon for something they aren't. They really are to blame only for providing stereotypes and familiar stories which we can embellish into supporting our own objectives as a society at a given time.
Also consider reading:
"Don't Tell the Grown-ups" by Alison Lurie
"The Witch Must Die" by Sheldon Cashdon
"The Hard Facts of the Grimms' Fairy Tales" by Maria Tatar
Don't agree with everything they say, but they will start rounding out the view of fairy tales as harmful to self-perceptions.
Heidi
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/29/03 10:37 am)
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slender waists etc
Re slender waists in general, look at the illustrations in LANG'S FAIRY BOOKS. Rather large sturdy heroines, by our standards. And not the Disney standards of pretty faces, either (tho they all look similar, so they might be all to the late Victorian standard).
Also try searching for 'beautiful' etc in some online editions of the old Grimm's. There are some sites that have all the stories in a single txt file. My impression is also that they don't specify 'beautiful princess' as often as we'd supose; it's something we read in, for some reason.
Also, where 'beautufull' does occur, see if it could be read 'fine' or 'to be approved' or something. Still, fairy tales do make a big deal when someone is ugly.
Also look at Calvino's ITALIAN FOLKTALES. He's the Italian Grimm but worked in the 1950s so he didn't do a Victorian slant as the Grimms did.
Slender waists were in fashion when Snow White was killed by to0-tight lacing, tho.
Rosemary
www.rosemarylake.com
(my retellings)
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