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Otherworld
Registered User
(1/9/03 6:21:28 pm)
other culture pre-conceptions of "Highlands" folkl
hello folks
I'm about to start a scottish/celtic folk lore project, I'm from loch ness, inverness, origanaly, now based in glasgow. I am realy interested in hearing from people from around the world on their concepts on what scottish highland folklore is? feel free to say what ever you think. This is not a judgemental excersice but a project on how others percive highland folklore...
thanks for your input
otherworld

swood
Registered User
(1/10/03 7:32:34 am)
Re: other culture pre-conceptions of "Highlands" f
Since you have stumbled across a board of enthusiasts, I’m not sure if responses here will represent generalities from around the world. However, I am from the US and while I count Scotland as part of my mongrel heritage, your question made me realize, even as a folklore enthusiast, how little I know about the country and its culture.

I think one of the greatest confusions comes with the difficult political situation that faces the countries that are included as part of the UK. (What is the difference between the UK, Britain, etc?) I know that in Scotland there has been a movement for independence, and that Scotland now issues its own money. (Does it also have a separate parliament?)

Add to the mixture linguistic confusion about the word "Celtic" and what it means. In my experience here in the US, Celtic is often used as a catchall phrase referring generally to Irish stuff and to new-found notions of old religions. The ensuing pastiche means that I have no idea what the region of origin is for many things, so my notions of Scottish or Celtic culture include large chunks of things that are Welsh or Irish.

Here is a brainstorming list of things associated:
George MacDonald
Plaid
Finn MacCoul – (Irish?)
Banshees
Brownies
From Arthurian Legend, the Bros. Orkney (Gawain is my favorite knight)
Mary Queen of…
Robert the Bruce
Presbyterianism

That being said, I have seen some marvelous cinema originating in Scotland recently, including a film called Small Faces that I found at my local library. I am definitely curious, and asking, in my ignorance, to be set straight.

Also, geographically speaking, is there a difference, in Scotland, between the highlands and other regions? (Why does one never hear about the "Scottish lowlands?") How much does folklore change from region to region?

Sarah

Yellow McMaggie
Registered User
(1/10/03 8:49:42 am)
Highland folklore
As an American living in Scotland (also in Glasgow), I arrived in Scotland with many pre-conceived notions of Highland folklore. I'm sure that it is one of the main reasons for me coming to this wonderful country. Scotland just conjures up images of ancient and mystical times.

Of course the Highlands are my favorite place in the world, and I try to travel up north as often as possible. Of course everyone knows of the Loch Ness Monster, and I am sure that most people would agree with me that the name Loch Ness Monster is nearly synonymous with Scotland. Well, after all, you can buy Nessie souvenirs in almost all tourist shops!

And of course there are tons of castles and places in Scotland that are said to be haunted. I am sure that they contribute to a great deal of local folklore and legends. When I still lived in the States, I remember watching TV programmes on haunted Scotland, and I when I told many people back home that I was moving to Scotland, all they could think about was all the dark and haunted castles covered in layers of mist.

Upon reflection, I am sure that Harry Potter is doing a great deal to reinforce people's notions of folklore in Scotland. After all, JK Rowling set Hogwarts in Scotland. Pixies. Gnomes. Mountain trolls... [yes the Harry Potter books deal with British folklore, but the Hogwarts school works great in its Scottish setting

Yellow McMaggie
Registered User
(1/10/03 8:52:39 am)
Highland folklore (part 2)
[yes the Harry Potter books deal with British folklore, but the Hogwarts school works great in its Scottish setting ;o)... oh and to answer swood's question. Britian refers to England, Scotland and Wales and the UK refers to those 3 countries but also includes Northern Ireland]

Also when I think of Higland folklore I think of water spirits. I recently read a myth about the lady of the lake of Loch Awe. That is just one of hundreds of such myths.

And then there are selkies/silkies. The seal folk.

And taking the ferry across the Minch between Ullapool and the Western Isles, there are said to be sea folk who pull people in to drown them. (sailor legends?)

And of course there is also Haggis Hunting...:)

Well, these are my pre-conceptions. Hope they help some. I'm a wee bit jet-lagged right now from a recent long flight so I am more than likely really incoherent.

Cheers,

Katie

Jess
Unregistered User
(1/10/03 7:59:38 pm)
Stupid question
Just bear with me, but I always thought that Scots always "felt" independent from England, and not without quite a bit of history to back them up. Or am I all wrong?

Jess

JaNell
Registered User
(1/10/03 9:19:08 pm)
Brits? Bah!
Ditto Ireland, I thought.

Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/11/03 12:27:50 am)
Written from Scotland
It's not that the Scots feel "independent" of England, they feel they were and are a nation of their own, raped, pillaged, and yoked unwillingly to England.

Even the ones who support GB have an undercurrent of this.

Jane

Meurglys
Registered User
(1/11/03 6:10:34 am)
Hijack Written from Scotland
One or two points, then back to 'outside' opinions...

Bits of Scotland that aren't the Highlands (& Islands).
The Lowlands can be considered as anything South of the Highlands and consist of 3 main areas, the Central Belt (with Glasgow & Edinburgh at either end), the Borders and the South West (Ayrshire & Galloway, etc.)

Money - Scotland has always issued it's own money - although it's been debatable whether it's been exchangable abroad (or even in England) or even whether it's technically legal tender here!
Any bank used to have the right to issue it's own notes but this right was stopped for new banks (I can't remember off-hand how long ago - mid-19thC?) and as banks closed or amalgamated the number of issuing banks shrunk. It's now three - The Royal Bank of Scotland, The Bank of Scotland & The Clydesdale Bank. The Royal still issues pound notes and they all issue their own designs of larger denominations. And, of course, the Bank of England notes are legal tender UK-wide. So we can easily have 3 or 4 different designs of fivers (£5 notes) in our pocket although they're all the same size and colour.
And we do now have a devolved Parliament.

But, please, back to Selkies and seers with the Sight, etc!

Otherworld
Registered User
(1/11/03 9:11:21 am)
Re: otherworld says
Thanks folks
this is helping last person said .. lets get back to tales, creatures, coustoms, etc
I have answers to some questions raised but will post them in a couple of days
cheers
otherworld

Jess
Unregistered User
(1/11/03 9:20:27 am)
So much for diplomacy - back to selkies.
Thanks! I was trying to be gently diplomatic as I was fairly certain, but was hazy on my history. Clearly, I understated the case. Back to the business of the board.

Jess

Grindlegutz
Registered User
(1/14/03 5:03:23 pm)

Re: So much for diplomacy - back to selkies.
Scottish and Northern Irish currency is in sterling and should be accepted in England. However, I am always being told otherwise by English shop assistants who are too bashful to admit they don't know how to check my Ulsterbank fivers to see if they are forgeries or not.

Anyway, my perception of Scottish folklore.

NASTY WATER BEASTIES: The Kelpie, the Nucklavee, Nessie, the Banshee. Seems every bit of water in Scotland, wether it is a large loch or a small burn has some kind of carnivorous creature just waiting for a tasty human to snack on. The Nucklavee in particular is one nasty customer, yet to be exploited in film.

STUPID GIANTS: They come over to Ulster to pick fights with our giants and are easily fooled into believing that our giants are in fact only the baby sons of our giants and run off again in short order.

Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(1/15/03 8:46:26 am)
Second sight in the Highlands...
All,
There's a splendid book, RAVENS AND BLACK RAIN (love that title, I might just have to steal it one day!) by Elizabeth Sutherland on the second sight in the Scottish Highlands. It's filled with both historical instances and modern day anthropological studies.

The same writer did a book devoted to the most famous of all Scottish prophets, the Brehan Seerer called THE SEERER OF KINTAIL.

Loads of interesting facts/fictions and suppositions in both books.

And some where on this list I've mentioned before the various books by Duncan Williamson about Scottish folklore and one of his books, TALES OF THE SEAL PEOPLE is , of course, devoted to tales about the selkies.

In younger years I used to spend quite a bit of time in the Scottish Highlands and sent back box after box of books filled with all sorts of intriguing stuff.

One of the best experiences was a house swap with another artist that lived on the Orkney Islands. My wife and I spent a month there, exploring that set of islands. Ancient ruins you bet!! The Ring of Brodgar on Midsummer's eve. On one side of the stone ring a salt water lock on the other a fresh water one filled with swans. The islands are so far north that the midsummer evening was only a few short hours which we spent around a bonfire talking with islanders as well as visitors from France, England and Germany. A magical night indeed. Orkney is dotted with 3,000 year old burial chambers that were accessed by crawling through short stone lined tunnels that brought you into small burial chambers, just yourself, a flash light and the dust of thousands of years of history with no guide to disturb the "magic". Further down the island chain was the Tomb of the Eagles. Up the other end was the uncovered neolithic village of Skara Brae. And of course one of the outer islands, Shule Skerrie, is the home for that great Scottish ballad of the selkie and his son. It's definetly worth the effort to get there.

Best,
Charles

MollyBee
Unregistered User
(1/15/03 4:26:25 pm)
Scotchmen
I can proudly wear a tartan. Scotchmen carry bagpipes too. They know their turf, but can laugh hearty. They are thrift and smart with the coin. And they them oats as well - to that I can testify. (Today I add raisens.) Good luck with your project.

Otherworld
Registered User
(1/15/03 6:59:40 pm)
Re highland clearances
this is all good folks
thanks very much
in relation to other topics, has any one get ideas/conceptions about "The Highland Clearances" and there impact on,distrabution and merger with other cultures
tune in on sunday for updates on ideas and issues mentioned.
I have printed all of this out and will go through it for those I can answer then.
cheers
Otherworld

Grindlegutz
Registered User
(1/16/03 4:12:07 am)

Re: Re highland clearances
I know that some people in Northern Ireland are surprised that the highland clearances didn't spark off a situation in Scotland similar to the situation in Northern Ireland.

Meurglys
Registered User
(1/16/03 5:51:58 am)
Re: Re highland clearances
I'm not sure what parallels there are to be drawn between Northern Irish history & the Scottish Clearances.

My understanding is that in many cases the Clearances were instigated by the Clan chiefs themselves wanting the higher income sheep would provide, compared to the rent (often 'in kind') their crofters could pay. This increased income often helped to finance their living in London, as power and influence migrated south.

No one's mentioned the Fairy Flag, yet... and my knowing about it doesn't count, as I'm from Edinburgh.

Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(1/16/03 9:47:30 am)
The Clearances...
There is a great (and very heart rending) non-fiction book written by John Prebble, THE HIGHLAND CLEARANCES (Penguin) that has all you need to know on the sbject. His other books, CULLUDDEN, GLENCOE and an over view of Scottish history, THE LION IN THE NORTH are equally as good and as informative.

The Clearances were a tragedy as great as the Irish potato famine with as much dire consequences but they, unlike the Irish famine, are rarely if ever talked about.

I have books and books on the subject as they are all research for a future project that may or may not ever happen.

Right now I think I'd rather read about selkies...

Charles

Lizzi
Unregistered User
(1/16/03 4:00:05 pm)
Re: English myth
As someone who lives in England and who always hears from Americans about their Celtic ancestry, I usually get quite fed up of some of the historical inaccuracy about Scotland and Ireland etc. The English usually get the blame except when you actually dig into the history a lot of the "blame" lies with the ruling classes of both Ireland and Scotland, plus most of the so-called "English" were in fact Dutch or German (and in the case of Ireland it was many of the wandering Scots that messed up Ulster). Many of the English royals were not English (Henry Tudor was Welsh I believe, William of Orange was Dutch etc). I mean, the poor "English" are a series of invasions and they were being oppressed too by many of the nutters that had any power and often not royal ones either.

Otherworld
Registered User
(1/16/03 4:32:19 pm)
Re: English myth
A valid point about English myth, every culture that has been oppressed/exploited has had inside help, but while the politics are relevant lets get back to the myth, superstions, etc.
No one has mentioned "Clooty wells" I found an old book in Inverness Library which was about links between Highland and Chinese folklore... written in the 1950's, does this ring a bell with anyone?

Grindlegutz
Registered User
(1/17/03 3:42:14 am)

Re: English myth
Sorry to go OT but I thought this essay might cheer up Lizzy, and anyone else who enjoys a tongue in cheek look at history.

From...

Collis, J. 1996. ?Introduction. In P. Graves-Brown, S. Jones and C. Gamble (eds.) Cultural Identity and Archaeology: the Construction of European Communities, pp?. London: Routledge.
Quote:
In the first century BC the British (or Pretanoi) lived quite happily on their islands all fighting one another, and probably not even aware that they were Pretanoi. This pleasant state of affairs was disrupted by the invasion of the Romans (actually not Romans, but Gauls, Germans, Spaniards, Numidians, Thracians, and lots of others were a few Italians pretending to be Romans for appearance’s sake). After nearly four hundred years of occupation the Britons thought of themselves as Romans (and under this guise had themselves helped invade a few unsuspecting countries such as Dacia).

According to history, in the early fifth century these ‘Romans’ ‘left.’ What actually happened was that, first under Magnus Maximums, and later, under Constantine III, the British (or Romans) went over to the continent to conquer the Roman Empire. Unfortunately they were too early, both were defeated and killed, and we had to wait another 1,500 years for the British Empire. This, however, left something of a military vacuum, which various German (Saxons, Angles and Jutes) were called in to fill by the Romans (or Britons) who were left.

Under Constantine I the Roman Empire became nominally Christian (a Jewish religion, not to be mixed up with Judaism), so all the eastern parts of the British Isles were Christian. The Scots (who lived in Ireland) had never been conquered by Romans or by anyone pretending to be Romans, so they were not Christians, but Pagans, until they were converted to Christianity by Patrick (or Palladius). Meanwhile, behind their backs, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, who were Pagans, had taken over the east of England, so that now the western part of Britain was Christian and the eastern part was Pagan (the reverse of what it was before, but perhaps the same as it is today).

Never having been conquered, the Scots in Ireland had continued their bad old ways of fighting one another, and when one group of them, the kingdom of Dál Riada, lost, they decided to take it out on people outside of Ireland. So they attacked the Britons (or Welsh) who lived in Scotland (which wasn’t called Scotland, because the Scots lived in Ireland). But when the Scots from Dál Riada invaded Scotland, it became Scotland, except the bits occupied by the Picts and Angles. Much later the Picts and Angles became Scots, which would have made things easier if the Norse hadn’t invaded part of Pictland (and remained Norse, until they too become Scots, and the last ones to speak Gaelic).

So by around AD 600 (except it wasn’t because Bede hadn’t invented the AD system yet) the Irish Scots were in Ireland, the Picts and Scottish Scots in Scotland, the Britons (or Welsh) mainly in Wales, but also in England and Scotland, and the Angles, Saxons and Juts living in the rest of England and parts of Scotland, and everyone was fighting everyone else including themselves. So the Irish became Irish, the Scots and Picts became Scots, the Britons became Welsh, and everyone else became English, unlike nowadays when everyone on the continent calls the Scots and Welsh English as well, which understandably annoys them intensely — the Irish are either Irish or British, except when they too are called English. This goes to show that you can trust no external source, ancient or modern, to tell you what people call themselves.

In AD 597 St. Augustine turned up in Canterbury and introduced the Roman Church (which became the Roman Catholic Church when it was no longer catholic in the Greek sense of ‘universal’). So in the east there were Roman Christians while in the west the Celtic Church held sway, except as there were never any Celts in Britain, it could not have been the Celtic Church. Unfortunately no-one has come up with a better term — the Irish Church is not adequate, as the Irish weren’t Irish, and it included Welsh, Scots, and some Anglians in Northumbria. According to Bede it should be the Scottish Church, but that confuses modern people who still naïvely believe that the Scots come from Scotland.

At this point in history comes the turning point, from whence all the Irish problems stem, the Synod of Whitby in AD 664. In it the Irishman (or Scotsman) Colman was defeated and went home to Scotland (or Ireland), and the English decided to follow the Roman practice. This is why nowadays we have no idea when Easter falls following the Roman system of calculation, rather than having no idea when it falls following the Scottish calendar (the last prehistorian in the House of Lords was Lord Avebury who introduced Bank Holidays; given this track record of prehistorians dealing with national holidays, we hope Lord Renfrew will finally solve the Easter question). Thus the Irish, Scots, Britons and Picts were on one side, and the English on the other. Except that somehow by the time of the next major event, the Irish had changed their minds, so that everyone in Britain followed the Roman Church and were on the same side, and trying to keep the terrible Vikings and Danes at bay.

This might have been fairly successful, except for the fact that some Vikings went to France and became Normans (or Northmen), so that disguised as Frenchmen (the Franks were Germans who spoke French, whereas the French are Gauls who speak French), they were able to confuse Harold Godwinson by failing to live up to their name and attacking from the south, while Harold was in the north dealing with genuine Northmen. The Norman kings spoke French, so were unable to converse with their English (and Danish) subjects, but this did not matter, as they also controlled large parts of France. However, when they lost control of their French possessions, they had no-one to talk to so they learnt English too. Thus it is tanks to Joan of Arc throwing the Normans (or English) out of France that English rather then French is now the major world language (otherwise the English might have ended up speaking French like the Normans). The other problem with the Normans was that they tried to take over everyone else (Welsh, Irish and Scots), but it is always the English who are blamed for this.

Henry VIII, having lost the final bit of France, founded the Anglican Church to oppose Catholics. The Scots too became Protestants (not to be confused with the Scottish Church, which, as we saw, was Celtic). In 1601 the Scots took over England under their king, James VI, who became James I of England, and so took over Scotland, so that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland were all finally united and could start fighting on another in peace without too much outside interference (except from the Dutch William of Orange, and various Georges of German origin). As part of this process, James sent some Scotsmen back to Ireland to keep the Irish under control. So now the Scots (who had been Irish before the Irish became Irish) now went back to Ireland where the Irish (who had been Scots) were now Irish. Add to this the religious dimension that the Irish (who had not been Catholic) were now Catholic, and the Scots and English (who had been Catholic) were now Protestant, then confusion was bound to reign.

In the eighteenth century the Irish, Welsh and Scots suddenly found they were all Celtic. This fortunately came at an opportune moment, as all over Europe people were discovering the ‘nation-state,’ and with it their national history. Thus the Germans had Germania, the Italians Italia, and the Greeks Graecia (or Hellas), and so they united or freed their countries. The English were too superior for such games, and in any case Britannia was Welsh, not English, so, illogically, they became British. The French too had a problem as the Franks were Germans, so they invented the Gauls. This coincided with the moment in time when the Irish discovered they could speak and write English much better than the English (Joyce, Yeats, Wilde, Shaw, etc.), and had largely changed their language, and they might have stopped speaking Irish but for the foundation of Eire.

The problem still lies with Northern Ireland, where just under half of the population are Scots who stayed at home to become Irish and Catholic, and are in conflict with just over half of the population who were Scots who went away to become Scottish and Protestant, but then came back against to become British and Protestant. These latter want to remain British and Protestant Christians, when an increasing number of the English are becoming Muslim, Hindu, atheist, druids, witches, or incorrigible agnostics like myself, and are also wondering whether they really want to be British any longer. However, the Ulster Freedom Fights (a Protestant group) are now drawing on Irish literature in evoking the spirit of the hero of the great Irish epic the Táin Bó Culainge, Cúchalainn, as a defender of Ulster against the southern Irish, and are even beginning to learn Irish (Bowcott 1991), turning the Irish language into a weapon of the north versus the south rather than vice versa. Unfortunately, Cúchulainn came form the south.

americk
Unregistered User
(1/17/03 8:39:05 pm)
celtic myth
Lizzi, There are many myths and Legends that England is proud to claim as its own, just as Scotland has its own myths and legends, AND in some cases they share many of the same legends...

In fact, most cultures share similiar legends, tales and myths. Because with invasions, trade, or the simple action of moving from one place to another, the oral tradition travelled with them.

I myself claim to be partly of German ancestry and the parts that my ancestors come from are now parts of Poland. (Prussia, unfortunately no longer exists and geographically, for where they are from is now a part of Poland)

Polish, German... whatever
English, Scottish... whatever

Every European country has been affected by invasions at one time or another, and what else can they be but political?!

And as someone living in Scotland and aware of history, it does not matter where the people came from to create such a wonderul collection of myth, legend and folklore, but that fact that it had been created.

Of course England has celtic myths and they are acknowledged, as well. In fact, many Arthurian legends hail from England. It is just that geographically, we've had different influences Here many of the influences in Scottish myth are in fact Norse. I.e. Orkney and Shettland Islands.

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