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Author
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Comment
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/18/04 4:02 pm)
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role of the fairy tale witch
what are some of the roles of the fairy tale witches? why do they do what they do?
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redtriskell
Registered User
(7/18/04 9:15 pm)
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witch symbolism
The answers to your questions are vast. The witch in fairy tales
represents everything from true evil to careful instruction. It
depends (obviously) on which witch in which story. Hansel
and Gretel's witch, I've heard discussed, seems to be a personification
of evil. I mean, all she does is lure unsuspecting kiddies to her
abode so she can capture and eat them. Snow White's witch-queen
seems to represent the darker aspects of motherhood; I imagine many
women feel competative, at some point, with their daughters. She
is definitely one of the more complex witch characters. The witch
in Rapunzel seems more selfish (to a point) than malevolent. At
least she keeps her bargain with the queen- as much lettuce as the
queen wants in exchange for the child. It makes me wonder about
the queen- that she would agree to such a thing seems worse to me
than what the witch does. If you include fairy godmothers as a type
of witch, then the kinder aspects appear. The fairy who changes
Sleeping Beauty's
fate to a hundred year sleep rather than death, for example. Cinderella's
benevolent helper- whether her mom's ghost or a fairy godmother-
also fits the bill for a witch character. In the realm of funny
and interesting, Terry Pratchett's "Witches
Abroad" handles fairy tale witches in a unique and hysterically
funny way. I'm sure there will be lots of interesting comments on
this idea. Good topic.
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janeyolen
Registered User
(7/19/04 1:34 am)
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Re: witch symbolism
Red Triskell: While I agree with you in the main, I want to mention two things:
Most Rapunzel stories
I have read do not have a queen. It is a poor woman and her husband
who live next door to the witch who give her the baby in exchange
for food.
Also, the witch in Hansel
and Gretel is often seen as the darker (or truer) side of the
stepmother. Notice how, when the children return home (over the
lake on the back of a white swan, possibly the spirit of their real
mother) the father tells them that the stepmother has disappeared.
Yes, witches in folklore run from true horrors like Baba Yaga with
her iron nose to genrous teachers like Mother
Holle and her clones. And everything in-between.
So the moral of these stories is: be kind to little old ladies in the woods. And if you see one with iron teeth or find a hut with a fence made of human bones--run away!
Jane
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/19/04 12:05 pm)
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the witch
I also mean that the "witch" per say doesnt necessarily
have to be "evil." Due to our preconceived notions and
assumptions that these tales MUST have an evil witch we always designate
that title to the one who best fits the description. However, they
are not always evil or the stereotypical witch. For example, in
Andersons' "the
Little Mermaid," the witch helps the mermaid, or even in
the movie "the
Wizard of Oz," the witch just wants her sisters shoes and
wants Dorothy taken alive and unharmed.
On the other hand you do have your typically evil witches/stepmothers
such as the one in Hansel
and Gretel and Snow
White.
I guess I am trying to point out that a good part of these "witches" are not entirely evil as we assume them to be. These are the logical ones, who if we put ourselves in their position would also share the same emotions and feelings and legitmate resoning for acting as they do.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(7/19/04 12:24 pm)
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Re: the witch
Taking off from Jane's mention of Baba Yaga, I'll observe that this is one character who might work well as a synecdoche for the archetype of the Witch in general; most frequently, she is seen as being cruel, is noted most for her cannibalistic tendencies, and is feared for the power that she wields. Yet, frequently, Baba Yaga can be a helper figure, if she is treated with courtesy and respect (see "Vasilisa the Beautiful," or "Finist Bright-Feather"), or a tester whose actions spur the hero/ines on to face greater challenges ("Marya Morevna"). The witch in the forest is a symbol of power who serves, in stories, to distill characters to their essences. The names that we give them, and the actions that we ascribe to them - witch or fairy, sorceress or godmother - say more about how the societies telling the tale view feminine power than they do about feminine power itself. Just my two cents ...
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bielie
Unregistered User
(7/19/04 1:31 pm)
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Witch
I think witches are purely evil in fairy tales. If someone is identified as a witch (German: Hexe) it means she's evil. It is the meaning of the word. The concept of the witch as a benevolent character seems to be fairly recent and stems from a redefinition of the word to include wise women, shamans (who may be evil or not), fairy godmothers etc. And of course Glinda, the good witch of the south, and her sister Hermione.
Frau Holle is never identified as a hexe by the Grimms. The witch in mermaid only helps the mermaid in order to destroy her.
If I'm wrong, let me know.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(7/19/04 3:22 pm)
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Re: Witch
But I think that redefinition of the word is crucial. What is the difference between a "witch" and a "fairy godmother"? It's not a difference in power, efficacy, focus, or even gender. It's a question of whose side you're on.
Quote:
in the movie "the
Wizard of Oz," the witch just wants her sisters shoes
and wants Dorothy taken alive and unharmed.
The Wicked Witch of the West, one of the best villains ever, is not quite so harmless. She sets the scarecrow on fire and she tries to kill Dorothy ("Those shoes will never come off your feet...as long as you're alive. But that's not what's worrying me. It's how to do it. These things must be done delicately, or you hurt the spell." "See this? This is how much longer you've got to live! And it isn't long, my pretty, it isn't long!") Even if you side with the WW of the W on grounds of inheritance, killing a child over a pair of magical shoes and mocking their fear ("I'm frightened, Auntie Em, I'm frightened!") seems pretty evil to me.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 7/19/04 3:48 pm
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(7/19/04 3:30 pm)
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Re: Witch
I, too, think that the question of terminology is immensely significant. In Russian, there's much that same sort of a linguistic division - a ved'ma, witch, is always evil, whereas a good female magic worker would be referred to as a caldun'ya, a sorceress. However: in English, the root of the word witch, wicce, is crucial to our understanding of the portrayal of the descended terminology, witch. The original word has *not* been redefined, but reclaimed. Originally, it did have shamanistic overtones, and implications of wisdoms - only as those things, when stemming from pagan origins, were viewed with suspicion and prejudice, did the evil connotations come into play. Just look at the word "heathen," for example, which now carries overtones of barbarism; really, it simply refers to those who live outside of the cities. Again, years of linguistic accretion coming into play ... I think that the examinations of characters motivations and their effects within the stories are necessary before blanket judgements can be made.
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/19/04 6:55 pm)
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wicked witch of the west
Is it not true that in the beginning of the Wizard of OZ, Dorothy's house falls on the ww of the west's sister. Dorothy says it was an accident and Glinda gives the dead witch's shoes to Dorothy. Now the witch wants to know who killed her sister and wants her sister's shoes. We assume she is evil because she is portrayed as ugly while Glinda is beautiful..
If you look at this situation from the witch's perspective, the town is celebrating her sisters death, Dorothy never once apologizes for this and she cant even have the last memory of her sister- the ruby slippers.
Now if you look at Glinda, she provokes the witch to be mad at Dorothy and then tells dorothy o look you've made quite an enemy, meanwhile it was Glinda making everything worse the whole time. Then Glinda tells dorothy to wear the shoes and go to see the wizard when she being magical herself knows how dangerous the journey to Oz is. She pisses off the wicked witch of the west intentionally so shes mad at Dorothy and then sends her out knowing the witch is now going to seek revenge. Then at the end of the movie she tells Dorothy after she missed her balloon ride to kansas, "you had the power the whole time," all she had to do was click her heels and say there is no place like home X3. If Glinda being such a good kind witch knew this all along, why didnt she tell Dorothy when she gave her the shoes?
I think this particular film with these characters comes back to the preconceived notions and stereotypes of good is pretty and bad is ugly, meanwhile if you look deeper you will see that she wasnt all that evil and glinda wasnt all good.
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/19/04 6:57 pm)
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their role in the story
However, I am still trying to uncover the general role of the "witch" in a fairy tale, while analyzing why these "witches" do what they do?
Anyone know that can help?
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(7/19/04 7:32 pm)
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Re: their role in the story
Yes, I've thought of that take on the tale before. I maintain that threatening to kill a child over shoes, no matter how emotionally significant the shoes are, is evil, no matter who "started it." So is holding a land of munchkins in thrall, as far as the sister goes. Glinda couldn't tell her about the shoes because a) there would have been no story, or at best a very dull one and b) this is a movie with a subtext about personal discovery, hence the journey. The point is that Dorothy had the ability within her, but she had to discover it.
I grew up in a city of people with dark hair and big noses who dressed in black, like my parents. I think that I found the Wicked Witch of the West evil because she threatens Dorothy.
Could you be a bit more specific about your original question? So many different witches, so many different actions, so many different tales...
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 7/19/04 7:41 pm
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janeyolen
Registered User
(7/20/04 1:45 am)
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Re: their role in the story
Look again carefully at Helen's post on Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga was known to be the most evil witch in the Russian canonical tales. Iron nose, fence of bones and all. For ghu's sake, she ATE people! Yet she was also kind/helpful to feisty young girls and polite young girls, like Vasilisi etc.
Jane
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bielie
Unregistered User
(7/20/04 10:21 am)
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Wicked W of te W
Hi Angelface
Next you'll convince me that Hitler was a good guy too. In the movie the Munchkins clearly state that the deceased witch was a despot and a tyrant.
Ugly does not equal evil. In Fairy tales evil often manifests itself in an ugly exterior. But remember: Sno W's stepmother was beautiful.
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/20/04 3:02 pm)
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good stuff
This is great stuff guys thanks for your help....
now .....why do some of the witches do what they do mainly, snow whites, rapunzel, hansel and gretel, the little mermaids and dorothys..........
We still have not uncovered though my first question..what is the main role of the "fairy tale" witch???
thanks guys
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(7/20/04 3:36 pm)
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actions
One thing all of the witches you mention have in common is that they essentially create the story. They serve as the cause of the story's action.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(7/20/04 5:34 pm)
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Re: actions
This ties in a little with the "leshy,
leshy" thread, where Kristi suggested the "playfulness"
of supranatural beings. Witches are not immortal, as many of the
other amoral figures peopling fairy tales are, but their actions
are frequently motivated *by* nothing more than their own whims,
whether they be for good or ill; the interesting thing is how they
motivate *others* to act. I think that trying to analyze why fictional
characters do things might make for a difficult time in terms of
proving your interpretation; you might have an easier time of it
if you were to also take historical factors into account (i.e.,
a craze of witch-burnings motivated by greed or fear correlating
to a high number of malevolent witches in the stories of some regions,
a long-standing history of midwives in another matching the more
"ambiguous" if not benevolent characters in others). For
example, if you look at the tales of the contes de fees, you'll
see a very high percentage of very powerful women in the guise of
the fairies, who are thought to reflect the positions of the authors
of the tales (a majority of whom were women of the nobility who
either already possessed power, or sought it). Terri Windling has
a great article about the connection up in the Reading Room section
of the Endicott site. Hope this helps!
P.S. - Are you writing an essay on this topic? Maybe if you were to tell us what you're looking for specifically it might clarify the issue ...
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Witch of QC
Unregistered User
(7/20/04 8:10 pm)
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Tsk Tsk Angelface
Tsk Tsk Angelface, asking for the answer to your paper question. This isn't going to be your own idea. Rest assured I check all references to the papers, including internet sites.
-K. Wong
QC English Dept
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/20/04 8:11 pm)
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essay
I actually am writing an essay on this topic....
The question though is sort of vague leaving lots of room for individual interpretations....
here goes...
What is the role of the fairy tale witch? Analyze why the witch character does what it does?
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angelface143258
Unregistered User
(7/20/04 8:15 pm)
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Prof. Wong
Hi Professor...
no worries i will credit all references........
However, I assumed that you might not be mad considering I found this site and started a discussion as a way of researching. Was this a bad move? ....I hope not....
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EKathy
Registered User
(7/20/04 9:22 pm)
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Re: Prof. Wong
angelface,
Something you might enjoy listening to is the sound track of Into
The Woods. It is a tale of fairy tales mixed and twisted together
in what I think is a delightful way. The Last Midnight (track 16)
is almost the end of the story.
This is where the witch addresses what is left of the characters - reminding them of their greed, and how they are always wanting someone to blame for their problems.
"Told a little lie, Stole a little gold, Broke a little vow. Did you?
Had to have your Prince, Had to get your cow, Have to get your wish, Doesn't matter how --
... (later)...
You're so nice, you're not good, you're not bad, You're just nice.
I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world."
I think perhaps the witch is the instrument in the stories that makes the reader (the world) look at their fears - fear of getting old, fear of being eaten, fear that they will forever be controlled.
Then the reader sees what happens to the characters as they struggle.
Poisoning beauty didn't do the stepmother any good - Keeping Rapunzel
in a tower without doors didn't keep her out of danger - or virginal...
the children faced their fear and acted, thus survived and were
not eaten - in fact the step mother even disappeared when they returned
home to face that problem.
I think you have to remember the person who writes a story is aware of the reader and you can't leave either the writer or the reader out of a story. The story was told for the reader, to entertain, and teach, and who teaches us better than the witch?
Kathy
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Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(7/20/04 11:51 pm)
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Re: Prof. Wong
You might also enjoy Margaret Atwood's short piece, "Unpopular
Gals," which not only puts forth a few ideas about witches,
but is quite funny. It's in the collection called Good
Bones and Simple Murders (kind of a fun collection to read
anyway).
Just out of curiousity, why does there have to be "one" role for witches in fairy tales?
Erica
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