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Comment
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Crceres
Registered User
(12/26/04 6:40 pm)
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Further argument
Fascinating points...I'll throw caution to the wind and jump into the discussion.
English may have the moon cast as masculine in many cases, but what about the Welsh Arianrhod? Her name means silver wheel, and the character in the Mabinogian was strongly linked to moon worship. Besides, the moon is so often associated with females (due to cyclic nature) that having it show up in a story as a woman does not seem particularly out of place.
Why doesn't the moon in this story qualify immediately as divine being? There is some similarity to coyote-myths, in which coyote gets in trouble and is 'killed', but is neatly revived later on.
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Ari Berk
Unregistered User
(12/26/04 9:05 pm)
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defs and etc
Black Sheep, I think I now see your issues with this. Let me say, at least in relation to your last paragraph we are in some agreement. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I favored a divine association for the moon just because it's "heavenly." Far from it. For one thing, much of the material that I study and teach (Native American literature and oral tradition) does not hold a single preference in this regard. Mountains, Stars, Caves, Moon, Rivers (and of course each of these would have a host names even among the same tribe) are all designated as sacred beings/places and some have aspects that are often personified. I am particulary aware that many of those sacred People (Sun for example or its many aspects) are not only Sky People, but also spend time Below the Earth which is often designated (depending on the culture) just as, if not more important place than the sky. So, perhaps the use of the word "sacred" instead of "mythic" (or my joke-phrase "myth-ish") get us (or me) out of trouble here. I still want to ponder a bit about the status of the moon in the Fen story, for I'm still apt to consider it having special (as you like it) or divine (as I like it) status because of the particularly reverencial manner in which it is referred to by the teller of the story itself, (and not because I equate "up" with godly generally). CrCeres' question about the Mabinogion brings up yet more issues, like our interpretation of the presence of characters who, once deities (like Lleu) now appear as magical or wondrous humans within the literature of a Christian world. Perhaps there is some of this dynamic at work within the Dead Moon...
I'm still willing to cut Briggs some slack. She calls it a "mythic story" because it has motifs that *appear similar* to those in other stories/cultures, not because she is trying to silence the indigenous Fenlander, but because she was a scholar and enjoyed identifying what she thought might be patterns of belief across cultures. That Brigg's interpretation of this story would differ from one's held by the Fen people who first told it (or you, or me) is utterly predictable, perfectly natural, and there is something to be had from both views, I think.
For me, the question of what a story means to the teller is always primary though it is more often than not the very element lacking among the earlier collections. So, I still wonder what that tale may tell us about what the nine year girl and her grandmother thought about the moon. I realize the collector may have colored the story. Still, we only have the one version, and if we want to talk about the Dead Moon, we'll have to take what we have, verbatim or "verbatim."
On perhaps a related matter, may I ask if you have read the books by Robert Bringhurst
1. Story As Sharp As A Stone
2. Nine Visits to Mythworld
3. Being In Being
These are perhaps some of the most interesting works on the subject of myth-poetry in translation ever written. Bringhurst has worked with Haida texts collected by Swanton. He is also a magnificent poet. You (and others) might enjoy these.
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Elizabeth
Registered User
(12/26/04 10:12 pm)
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Re: defs and etc
Fun discussion. Quick question (forgive me, as I'm sure that I missed it in an earlier post): is there a place where I can find the Briggs text? In one of her four books on British folklore/folktales, perhaps?
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Heidi Anne Heiner
ezOP
(12/26/04 11:34 pm)
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Re: defs and etc
You can find Briggs' "Dead Moon" in British Folk-tales and Legends (Amazon.com) on page 27. It's also in Part 1 of Part A: Folk Narratives. In my A Dictionary of British Folk-Tales in the English Language (Part A: Folk Narratives)
, it's on page 206.
Heidi
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Elizabeth
Registered User
(12/27/04 6:36 am)
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Re: defs and etc
Ah yes, those would be the books. Thanks.
I have the condensed version (the first one you reference), and both parts A and B of Volume 1. But gosh darn it, Volume 2 has the wicked good stuff, and they're just so spendy...!
Ah well. I'll continue to stalk Abe.com and hang at the NYPL...
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(12/27/04 5:33 pm)
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Re: defs and etc
Hi Crceres, bravely jumped, but don't forget to look before you leap... what about the medieval Cymric/Welsh Arianrhod whose name does indeed mean Silverwheel not moon and who is consistently presented in more than one tale as a human sorceress? What has a medieval Cymric/Welsh wonder tale about a human sorceress got to do with a 19thC Lincolnshire/English wonder tale about the moon? They come from different countries, cultures, languages, times, & religions: medieval Cymric/Welsh=Catholic Christians, 19thC Lincs/Eng=Protestant Christians. You might as well say what about old Japanese stories of Amaterasu... unless you can find/give evidence of a link?
Dear Crceres you ask "Why doesn't the moon in this story qualify immediately as divine being?" The answer is: because there is no claim or evidence in the story that she is a divine being.
Why am I not Emperor Ming? Because there is no evidence that I am (AFAIK!). :)
Dear Ari, think on as long as you like.
I wasn't accusing you of anti-downwardism, I was only pointing out that the moon's upness isn't an automatic qualification for divine status. I enjoyed your comment about up beings also sometimes going through down/under phases. That idea is especially relevant to this tale.
"Sacred" means consecrated so what is your evidence that our Lincolnshire moon is consecrated? And to what do you think she is consecrated? (Yes I know those are annoying questions, sorry, but I have to ask.)
It occured to me that you can probably define the tale as a 20th century English Pagan Myth, if you like, because I bet there's at least one contemporary English Pagan who has adopted the story as a religious myth...
Lleu is not a Deity in the mabinogion nor is there any evidence that there was ever a Cymric Deity called Lleu. There was a God called Lugh in some but not all pre-Christian Celtic cultures but that was about a millenia before the mabinogion. What evidence is there for a link between Lugh in pre-Christian Ireland/France and Lleu in medieval Christian Cymru/Wales? Louis/Lewis/etc are common names, even in our time, for non-Deities.
My only problem with your quoting Briggs is that you seem to be trying to use her as evidence to support a "Dead Moon" as mythic story definition but neither she nor you have provided any evidence from the source text. We may all _believe_ anything we please without evidence as long as we don't expect others to share our beliefs. :)
If we are looking for possible Divine female lunar influences on our Lincolnshire informant then the only likely one I can think of at the moment is classical myth filtered through 19thC English literature. Eric Smith's "Dictionary of Classical Reference in English Poetry" says that out of Roman/Greek Godesses mentioned in English poetry twixt 1800-1940 Venus/Aphrodite is referenced most often with Diana/Artemis next, Proserpina/Persephone third, and Ceres/Demeter fourth. This English Diana features as a patroness of moonlight, woods and wild animals (not Her classical role). She is referred to poetically as a godess (the poets' small g) but not believed in or worshipped as such. Our Dead Moon doesn't resemble this poetic Diana though and children's books featuring Icelandic Gods and the Celtic twilight were in fashion to influence our informant at the time of our tale.
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Ari Berk
Unregistered User
(12/27/04 6:09 pm)
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Bringhurst fix
I think I gave the title of the first Bringhurst volume incorrectly. It is _A Story As Sharp as a Knife_
Black Sheep, I did not say that name "Lleu" was a god in the Mabinogion or anywhere else. Merely suggested that his story appears to share some motifs and similarities with a character in the literature from a neighboring land who is a deity. Do feel free to ignore the suggestion.
AB
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Ari Berk
Unregistered User
(12/27/04 8:09 pm)
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ps on Lleu and Lug
cut that one off a moment before I meant to...
I mean to say, really, is a connection between Lleu and Lug that
strange a thought? Surely you're not suggesting so, Black Sheep.
Though you may not (nor may anyone, even myself at times) be inclined
to approve all aspects of that suggestion, it is certainly a common
enough notion and worth a brief mention...why, here it is again
on page 266 of MacKillop's _Dictionary of Celtic Mythology_ (Oxford
Press, 1998) :
"...Lleu's antecedents imply a larger character than we find in this literary context. Philologically, he is connected to, and may be identified with the Irish hero Lug Lanfhorta [of the long arm] and the ancient god Lugos/Lugus..."
Now, Black Sheep, old chum, I am not for a moment suggesting that you believe this, or indeed any idea, but to give others the impression that it should be *immediately* dismissed, well that's hardly fair is it? Questionable? Sure. What isn't? But WHOLLY uninteresting? Though I admit up front this is not exactly a fair comparison, I believe Peredur is also mentioned in the Mabinogion. Should we not compare and contrast the pages of Chretien's _Perceval_, or Von Eschenbach's _Parzival_ because we can't find a receipt for those author's vacations to Wales (or a Welsh person's trip to the Continent) and many people continue to be named Perry?
Of course, if the true purpose of your suggestions is to inspire folks to go back to the source material and interpret such notions for themselves based on the evidence they find without immediately relying upon the words of scholars (rogues) and pedants (candle-wasters), well, then I needs must salute you!
Ari
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(12/29/04 10:26 am)
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Erm...
I can't entirely make out what you're trying to argue for and/or against in the above posts Ari but, although they don't appear to offer any new evidence and don't seem to have anything to do with the Lincolnshire moon tale, I'll try to answer them anyway.
There's a quote stating a belief without any supporting evidence again. The only evidence offered in the MacKillop quote is the word "philology". In reply I can only repeat my previously posted point. Philologically Louis Armstrong is connected to lions, an ancient God, a medieval wonder tale hero, several kings of France, a notorious family of Northumbrian robbers and the first man on the moon (among many other things) but I don't see what that has to do with anything except philology?
The name choice of Lleu for the character in the mabinogion was probably influenced by the tales of the Ulster character Lugh. The late 11thC Cymric Catholic Christian monks were probably strongly culturally influenced by the mid 8thC Ulster Catholic Christian monks. The evidence in the texts also suggests that both groups were strongly influenced by their classical educations. This apparent cultural exchange doesn't provide evidence for any other. Each situation is different and has to be evidenced separately.
"Now, Black Sheep, old chum, I am not for a moment suggesting that you believe this, or indeed any idea, but to give others the impression that it should be *immediately* dismissed, well that's hardly fair is it? Questionable? Sure. What isn't? But WHOLLY uninteresting?"
I didn't "give" that impression although you might have mistakenly taken it. I again refer you to the source text (my post) which is available on the same web page as your post.
As you "admit up front" your referenced romance tales are "not exactly a fair comparison". The various inter-cultural exchanges which influenced that case are well documented.
Yes Ari, I always try to encourage people to return to sources and to consider those sources in their original contexts. Also to consider how our own relationships with those texts and contexts influence our understandings. Or, to put it another way, I try to encourage people to consider the contents of their hearts & minds and their consequent relationships with the world around them.
I cheerfully relate to the personified moon in our Lincolnshire tale as a characterisation in fiction of an object which, in fact, is AFAIK a large lump of rock. :)
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